Enfields still in use..................

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lgcal20ga	Enfields still in use..................	Lead	[-]
Posts: 225 (11/29/08 01:32 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Anybody else notice all the Enfields still in use in Mumbai, India this past week? Several of the police and/or military responding to the terrorist attacks in Mumbai were armed with what looked like the Enfield 2A rifle. I caught glimces of numerous Enfields, either 2A's or III's from what I saw. After all these years, this venerable old warhorse is still at it, right into the 21st Century. Larry
temperflash		#1	[-]
Posts: 353 (11/29/08 02:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Canadian Rangers are also still issued No.4 Enfields. Some may complain about the age and quality of the ammunition issued with their rifles, but there don't seem to be many complaints about the rifles themselves. The No.4 seems to be well suited to climates where sub zero temperatures would put more modern firearms out of action. The old trick is to remove every trace of lubrication, and the bolt action Enfield with its loose tolerances seems to work okay without lube, at least in the short run. The Suncorite coating seems to protect the exterior metal work just fine in all weather conditions.
Crunch130		#2	[-]
Posts: 794 (11/29/08 03:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I can speculate a few good reasons: 1. They got lots of them. 2. They have lots of different types of police forces. No need for all to have modern semi-autos. 3. Training these interior police forces to use and maintain them is simpler and less costly. 4. These interior forces probably carry them more as a wild animal control thing than to take on terrorists. Crunch
Ray Newman		#3	[-]
Posts: 328 (11/29/08 08:55 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Re: pictures of police officers (??), etc., holding a L-E. Anyone else notice the seemingly absence of web gear holding ammunition?? See also pictures # 20, 21 in the below link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... nnSTCPhoto Are these one-bullet Barney Fife type deputies? Or what?....
willy007		#4	[-]
Posts: 4 (12/01/08 04:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wow, I thought maybe I was the only one who noticed those enfields.
lgcal20ga		#5	[-]
Posts: 226 (12/01/08 06:01 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ray, I couldn't get the photo link to work. I tried to find some online photos but was not able to. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. I had my DVR working rewinds and slow motion single frames while it was live on TV and got some good looks at the rifles then. I was amazed to see the Enfields so prominent. Many of the other police and military had what looked to me like FAL's, and I saw some small weapons that mostly likely were Uzi's or HK's. I agree with Crunch they don't all need the most modern of weapons, but a bolt action (even a very fast Enfield bolt action) seems a little out of date when the bad guys are shooting full auto something-or-other's at you. Then again, the Finns did very nicely with their bolt action Mosin's back fifty years ago. I think I read somewhere that in the Winter War the ratio of casualties to number of rounds fired was like 1 for every 3 shots fired, compared to todays 1 for every 50,000 shots fired. Our snipers in Vietnam averaged 1 for every 1.7 shots fired.
GrantR Canada		#6	[-]
Posts: 388 (12/01/08 11:57 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	temperflash wrote: Canadian Rangers are also still issued No.4 Enfields. ....... Indeed they are - Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
A square 10		#7	[-]
Posts: 733 (12/02/08 09:47 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	and bagpipes as well , i see grant :>} i saw the enfeilds and FALs as well , its sad that this kind of thing exists in the world today , but as long as it does , im glad to know there are still rifles and men who know how to use them http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/directory "the original yesterdays weapons"
Carl Gustav		#8	[-]
Posts: 3192 (12/03/08 08:54 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	GrantR, those guys aren't wearing ear plugs. Bagpipes can damage your hearing. Carl
GrantR Canada		#9	[-]
Posts: 389 (12/03/08 09:43 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Carl Gustav wrote: GrantR, those guys aren't wearing ear plugs. Bagpipes can damage your hearing. Carl Especially that poor chap at the near end of the rear rank ...... almost looks like he has the outside tenor drone stuck right in his ear! Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
A square 10		#10	[-]
Posts: 744 (12/04/08 09:37 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	yes it does , we require both eye and ear protection on our local range , for everyone , even the bystander , but then perhaps he sets the step to the tempo and needs to moniter ? http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/directory "the original yesterdays weapons"
high speed cruise		#11	[-]
Posts: 2709 (12/06/08 01:40 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was actually IN India for 2 weeks and Bangladesh for 3 weeks in 1997. (Note: There are NO wild animals in India, the cows are holy, but they are also STARVING and eating trash off the sidewalks. The monkeys seemed pretty stand-offish). There are lots of Enfields there! And they are EVERYWHERE. I kept a diary on my journeys and here is what I noted: I don't think the "police" have guns, but the army is ever-present. Saw various Enfields (some even with lanyards). Bangladesh Airport (inside): several soldiers with Chinese SKS's with bayonets. One AK 47 slung over the shoulder (some sort of riot going on). India and Bangladesh: lots of Enfields. Even on a First Class TRAIN! Although, in the tight space of the passenger cars, I doubt they'd had an easy time bringing them to bear. The two soldiers I saw where passing through and I never saw them again. Enfields guard the embassies in Bangladesh. New Dehli Airport, India: FAL's carried by sleeping guards (it was night and we paid .20 US cents to sleep in the air-conditioned terminal). One traffic "cop" had a Makarov in a shoulder holster. Another had a Sten Gun at an intersecton. One bank guard had a long, double-barrelled shotgun. On a stop in Doha, Qutar, an airport guard had an AUG. I always wondered if the ammo in those Enfields was that same POF crap I have.......and in the hot, humid climate would even go off at all. I noticed two gun stores in Calcutta, but we didn't get to go in. Gosh I wanted to though! Guns are totally banned in Bangladesh, but my friend is very well-connected (had lunch with Army generals, and was to meet the PM, but she went abroad on me)...he has guns. hsc
TikiRocker		#12	[-]
Posts: 300 (12/06/08 04:38 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	It has occurred to me that the Canadian Rangers are the equivalent of the British Dad's Army!
GrantR Canada		#13	[-]
Posts: 390 (12/06/08 12:45 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TikiRocker wrote: It has occurred to me that the Canadian Rangers are the equivalent of the British Dad's Army! Well.... hopefully not quite that hapless! From the entry about them on the Canadian Army website: "The Canadian Rangers are part-time reservists who provide a military presence in remote, isolated and coastal communities of Canada. Formally established in 1947, Canadian Rangers are responsible for protecting Canada's sovereignty by reporting unusual activities or sightings, collecting local data of significance to the Canadian Forces, and conducting surveillance or sovereignty patrols as required." http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/ENGLISH/7_5_1.asp Winter Patrol - ""Prepare to dismount!" .... Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
TikiRocker		#14	[-]
Posts: 301 (12/06/08 01:23 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No fear Grant ... my step mother is a Canuck and my two little brothers are half Canuck; I've always enjoyed my time in Canada ... so "pass the bacon eh!"
temperflash		#15	[-]
Posts: 358 (12/06/08 03:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	GrantR Canada wrote: Carl Gustav wrote: GrantR, those guys aren't wearing ear plugs. Bagpipes can damage your hearing. Carl Especially that poor chap at the near end of the rear rank ...... almost looks like he has the outside tenor drone stuck right in his ear! Bagpipers don't have ear drum and breath through their ears. Which allows them to play longer notes and makes them more appreciated by the ladies who aren't turned off by men wearing skirts. PS Just found that Cordite not only sweats liquid nitro glycerine at temperatures over 125 degrees but also extudes gelled nitroglycerine when frozen. The Rangers best keep any cordite they have warm enough to avoid accidents or excessive pressures in very cold weather. Probably keeping a filled box magazine in a coat pocket till needed and keeping any stripper clips or cartridge boxes under the coat. The POF ammo problems seem to come from the neck sealant liquifying and leaking past the card wad. I've seen this stuff called "Asphaltum" but the British Treatise on ammunition called it "Beeswax". Beeswax and Resin mixtures were also sometimes called asphaltum because they looked the same and had the same uses. Also the Beeswax and Resin mixtures also often contained Bitumen which is a type of asphalt. The sealant that leaked past the wads of some misfired POF ammo I examined had desensitised the cordite and though the primer had fired the strands had not ignited. They looked like heat sealed nylon rope ends, and wouldn't burn at all when I tried to light them.
GrantR Canada		#16	[-]
Posts: 391 (12/06/08 07:42 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Actually, any .303 ammunition used by Canadian forces for 50 years or more has been Mark VIII(Z) which uses nitrocellulose-based propellant rather than cordite. (Indeed, that is what the 'Z' denoted in British Commonwealth ammunition designations ....) Here is what they currently use, manufactured by General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems Canada Inc. - successor to IVI (Industries Valcartier Inc.) which in turn was the successor of CIL (Canadian Industries Ltd.) which had absorbed the old Dominion Cartridge Company (and continued to use the "Dominion" name for its cartridges for many years.) http://www.snctec.com/htm...?id=10&thisSection=77 For that matter, speaking of present-day use, I have heard that on joint winter patrols of Canadian Rangers and regular Canadian Forces personnel conducted in the high Arctic, it has been found necessary to arm the Regulars with No. 4 Lee-Enfield rifles in place of their C-7 rifles and other 'high-tech' small arms, which will not operate reliably in the extreme cold! Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
temperflash		#17	[-]
Posts: 361 (12/06/08 08:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Actually, any .303 ammunition used by Canadian forces for 50 years or more has been Mark VIII(Z) which uses nitrocellulose-based propellant rather than cordite. (Indeed, that is what the 'Z' denoted in British Commonwealth ammunition designations ....) Sounds like they figured the cold weather instability of Cordite out at last. I wonder how much use they've made of .303 rifles up there since the NATO ammo became standard. I'll try to find a thread started by a Ranger on another forum, he didn't say what propellant his was using but he seemed to have had little but distain for the ammo he'd been issued. If his rifle bore had been eroded by using Cordite earlier on, Mk VIIIZ cartridges don't shoot very accurately in worn bores, too much blowby at the throat for a boat tail. For that matter, speaking of present-day use, I have heard that on joint winter patrols of Canadian Rangers and regular Canadian Forces personnel conducted in the high Arctic, it has been found necessary to arm the Regulars with No. 4 Lee-Enfield rifles in place of their C-7 rifles and other 'high-tech' small arms, which will not operate reliably in the extreme cold! I can remember reading of Arctic explorers using Reminton Rolling Block rifles because they required no lubrication to function. Till the Soviets came up with some really effective sub zero lubricants automatic weapons weren't much use in sub zero climates. I've read that the Siberian troops would charge German lines then after the german gunners opened up the Siberians would dive into the snow and wait awhile. The Germans would be on guard and tense, then the Siberians would jump up and charge again. While the Siberians were dug in under the snow the german MGs would have frozen tight. After a German position was over run the Germans could see Siberians squirting the captured Gern guns with a sub zero lube from bean sprayers, then they'd turn the now perfectly functioning guns against their former owners.
Herr Berg		#18	[-]
Posts: 132 (12/06/08 10:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Indian police take positions outside a Jewish centre in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Gunfire erupted on Friday when commandos began an operation to free Israelis held by suspected Islamist gunmen in Mumbai, while guests were also being evacuated from a luxury hotel in India's financial heart, witnesses said. A police officer, only hand seen, keeps vigil as he stands in a boat during police patrolling near the Porbandar coast, 412 kilometers (255 miles) west of Ahmadabad, India, Thursday, Dec. 4, 2008. Security has been beefed up in coastal towns and ports in the Gujarat state after terrorists are suspected to have used the Porbandar coast to reach Mumbai.
Herr Berg		#19	[-]
Posts: 133 (12/06/08 10:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Still using No1's too An employee (C) of the Taj Hotel comforts foreign guests in Mumbai November 27, 2008. At least 101 people have been killed in attacks by gunmen in Mumbai, police said on Thursday.
ndbullet500.theswissriflesd...		#20	[-]
Posts: 2 (12/08/08 06:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There is Skynews footage that shows an unfortunately well armed terrorist exchanging fire with an Indian policeman. As far as I can tell, there are no injuries during the clip, except for the very distant cell phone images that show an angry crowd surrounding the unseen captured terrorist, with no discernible injury visible. http://video.news.sky.com...ctv_station_12_021208.flv Last Edited By: ndbullet500 12/08/08 07:07 PM. Edited 3 times.