Please help me identify this marking (PICS)

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mjkberg	Please help me identify this marking (PICS)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (04/18/09 03:39 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Hi, I am new to the post and have an Enfield that my dad has had since the late 60's. Its a No4 Mk1* with an import making I can't identify. The rifle was make in 1942 and is Serial # 17C9278. Its a Savage and says US PROPERTY on the side. If someone could help me I would appreciate it. Thanks a bunch! It appears on the front of the receiver. Also on the bolt handle. Its sorta an upside down T with a side ways C going through it. What is it? There are others marking on the gun There is BLR on the top of the receiver at the front. The Serial number on the receiver matches the stock and magazine. The sling is early WW2 from what I am told . There is FTR painted on the stock. Last Edited By: mjkberg 04/18/09 03:47 PM. Edited 2 times.
eckman44		#1	[-]
Posts: 486 (04/18/09 09:33 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	BLR means Beyond Local Repair -- the sling is not an Enfield sling but a sling for an M1 garand
brewstop		#2	[-]
Posts: 438 (04/19/09 09:03 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The first two marks are London Proof marks: all military & civilian weapons in UK have to be proofed by law. Your rifle was surplussed out in UK sometime before it was exported. One of the other marks on the bolt handle might be part of a German proof mark, which is possible given that many Lee Enfields went through German dealers. "BLR" does happen to be a British Army abbreviation meaning "beyond local repair", but it is unlikely it applies to permanent markings as on your rifle - i.e. it wouldn't make sense to permanently mark something as "broken", when its due to be repaired. "BLR" in this sense is usually just put onto a paper label or tag when the equipment is backloaded to depot. Many No5s have turned up with "BLR" stencilled onto the butt in paint, so it is now thought that "BLR" is actually the abbreviation for some as yet unidentified unit in SE Asia - Malasia, India & Singapore all used these rifles. The "US Property" was applied to Savage No4 rifles in order to pretend that they were US property being "loaned" to UK under the "Lend Lease" scheme. In fact UK had paid for the tooling and for the rifle production, but as US was a neutral country for the first two years of WW2, it could not "sell" arms to a combatant nation under international law. Onve US entered the war, the "US property" deception became irrelevant, and later savage rifles dropped the marking.
eagle7		#3	[-]
Posts: 3892 (04/19/09 01:42 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lend Lease was not a deception to fool Hitler into thinking the USA was neutral; it was a legalism to get around the isolationalists in the Congress. The premise of the Lend Lease wording was that it was a "rental agreement" that included a payment plan, not free military foreign aid legislation. The USA had already violated the spirit of true neutrality from the begining of the war in 1939 and the Battle of France. American aircraft companies openly sold over 300 P-36 fighters to France as well as 675 P39 Airacobras and Boston bombers to the UK. This was a year before Lend lease was authorized. This was part of the Cash and Carry Agreement in which anti-Nazi combatant nations could purchase weaponry for gold. The USA also cut a deal with the UK after the Battle of France which exchanged British navy bases in the Carribean for American destroyers. Of course Germany was not fooled and as a result Germany fought an undeclared naval war againt the USA up to the formal declaration on 12 Dec 1941. edit. IIRC, the first shipment of LendLease Savage No 4s were delivered in the spring of 1942, when the USA was already at war with the Axis. Last Edited By: eagle7 04/19/09 01:45 PM. Edited 1 times.
mjkberg		#4	[-]
Posts: 3 (04/19/09 10:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks but I still would like to know the origin of the import/proof mark.
bradtx		#5	[-]
Posts: 1562 (04/20/09 08:25 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	mjkberg, The "C bisected by the nail" looking stamp is indeed a London Proof House mark. Were it better struck it would be an intersecting 'CP'. The crown above it is a London Proof House exclusive design. There will also be an American proof mark on a Savage which looks like a flaming bomb. In England, and much of Europe, new firearms are proofed. Military rifles in England are also proofed as if new when 'Sold Out of Surplus' by either the Birmingham or London proof houses. It depends upon when in the 60s the rifle was imported as to whether it has an import mark or not. If it is stamped 'ENGLAND', there will be no import mark. If not, look at the muzzle or near the back sight (most common locations) for an import mark. Brad
mjkberg		#6	[-]
Posts: 4 (04/20/09 04:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thank you to all. This is the only Enfield I have and it was given to me by my dad. I was researching it to find out its history. The story is that my dad was in college in Iowa from 1965-1967 and he traded a radio in exchange for the rifle. Dad said he only paid $15 for the radio. So if a WWII Enfield sling is appropriate. I will have to find one next. Thanks again. Last Edited By: mjkberg 04/20/09 08:55 PM. Edited 1 times.
mjkberg		#7	[-]
Posts: 5 (04/20/09 08:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Just got off the phone with dad and apparently his college roommate traded someone a minibike for the Enfield rifle, then dad traded a radio for it when he was in college. Dad said at Iowa state you were allowed to keep long guns in your dorm room but no pistols or ammo. His room mate had a gun cabinet with a sawed off shotgun, an M1 Garand and an M1917 Enfield that was re-chambered for .308 Norma Magnum. He said that M1917 in .308 Norma Mag was brutal to shoot. His room mate would pull black tip .30 cal AP bullets and reload them into .308 Norma. He would shoot concrete bridge abutments and the bullets would go in 3" but a two foot wide sheet of concrete would be blasted off. Good times.
99car		#8	[-]
Posts: 216 (04/22/09 12:40 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Nice looking rifle! I have its 17 series mate: 17C5650 with the same London proofs, and an American sling, although in my case it's a 1907 model. FTR on the stock means Factory Through Repair, so whatever was wrong with it, was fixed. Having a matching mag is a real plus, but it looks like the upper hand guard is a replacement because the original was grooved. The British may have replaced it and the butt during the FTR.Mine also has a FR stamp on the butt which could mean Field Repair.
eagle7		#9	[-]
Posts: 3907 (04/22/09 09:36 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"FTR on the stock means factory through repair". Not quite. FTR is an acronym for "factory thorough repair". Thorough = fully done, or completely finished
mjkberg		#10	[-]
Posts: 6 (08/07/09 07:51 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What would be the correct sling for this rifle? Savage? Brass tab? Green or tan web?
TP		#11	[-]
Posts: 887 (08/10/09 12:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tan webbing with brass or steel tabs, brass would be the most common. Green slings came along post WW2 so would be okay as well since the No.4 was certainly used after the War.. http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/british_slings_overview_page.htm
BurgieC		#12	[-]
Posts: 109 (08/11/09 11:48 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks guys, it is always good to learn about my Enfields. Also thanks to TP for the sling web page.......burgie
5th Batt		#13	[-]
Posts: 29 (08/14/09 01:00 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Your photo of the US PROPERTY mark shows a big chunk of the bolthead guide-rail missing, that would make it Beyond Local Repair.