Fiebling's Color on Birch

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Armed 2 tha Teeth	Fiebling's Color on Birch	Lead	[-]
Posts: 60 (10/17/09 01:42 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Last year I re-dyed a birch carbine stock with Fiebling's dye, and in a year it has lost most of it's color. I know leather dyes do not penetrate the wood as well as wood stains like Miniwax and such but I was shocked to see so much of the color gone from the stock. It could have fooled most people as walnut before but now around the comb and side the underlying birch is coming through. This winter I want to re-dye the stock, I heard that stains like those made by Minwax are harder to work with and I like Fiebling's dyes. However I don't want to have to continually re-dye this stock. I am thinking about leaving the dye darker when I stain it, knowing it will thin out. Will more coats of BLO or Tung help maintain the color any better? Thank you.
beanstrung		#1	[-]
Posts: 5629 (10/17/09 05:24 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Actually, alcohol-based leather dyes penetrate wood BETTER than oil-based stains like MinWax. For the darkest results, the dye (or stain) needs to be applied when there is NO finish on the wood. If you already have a built-up oil finish, the Fiebings dye will work much better than MinWax stain, but not as well as if the wood is bare. If you try to apply BLO or Tung-Oil, too soon, before the dye has "set", it will wash away some of the dye, reducing the darkening effect. For your current situation, I'd re-apply Fiebing's "Dark-Brown" dye to the existing finish. Let it dry for a day or two, then apply another coat or two of BLO. BLO will darken wood somewhat more than Tung-Oil finish. If the results of that are not satisfactory, I'd completely strip the stock to bare wood using a methylene-chloride based stripper, and start over. Just my two cents... you may want to wait on CabinetMan's response! -Bean --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? Joel 3:9-10
Armed 2 tha Teeth		#2	[-]
Posts: 61 (10/17/09 07:07 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for the help, The carbine stock was bare and dry as a bone when I first dyed it. I have a birch Garand stock I dyed recently and have since given it maybe 10 coats of BLO. I may experiment on putting dye on over that and see how it turns out. I guess we'll see what Cabinetman thinks.
Cabinetman		#3	[-]
Posts: 5384 (10/18/09 09:40 AM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm thinnin.....I'm thinnin! LOL OK. This is actually an easy answer. Most older style dyes are nortorious for not being UL resistant. The ones I've recommended here, however, (Behlen) are UL stablized. Ultra Violet light will fade dyes if they are allowed to be exposed for any length of time. Just think about that small table in the living room near the window. Notice how the parts that were exposed to daily sunlight have faded in time? That's just a consequence of older style dyes. Most modern dye are very stable. Some are designed more for substrates other than wood such as leather or cloth. Wood dyes tend to have that UL protection added to them. Still, even they will fade in time if allowed to sit in the sun. The beauty of dyes is the size of the pigment particles. They are extremely fine. I mention in my essay at the top of this forum that if dye particles were the size of a head of a pin, the stain particle would be the size of a golf ball. So, you can imagine that the dye particle penetrates the smallest fissures in wood thus giving you that beautiful three-dimentional look to it rather than slathering on a stain (Minwax) which lays on the surface. That's why Minwax is "hard to use". Very very rarely have I ever had any success with any Minwax product. All it is is some type of oil with some stain mixed in. Once you lay it on, you've sealed the pores to accepting more. Dyes, otoh, have only an alcohol base which evaporates leaving behind the dye. You can multi-layer them all day long, too, and increase the depth. What I would do in your case is rub out your stock with some 0000 steel wool dipped in oil to burnish the surface then wipe dry. After 10 coats of oil, you'll need to create some fissures for the dye to penetrate. Then simply dye that stock once again. Understand, however, that once that dye is on that stock you'll have to seal it in to keep it from lifting once again when you wet it with anything, including oil. So, after you dye it, I'd shoot it with a light coat of spray shellac. It's available from local home store. Just one coat. Once that's on, go ahead and oil that shellaced surface but do it with some 0000 steel wool dipped in oil once again. Just gently rub out that shellac so it's not shiney anymore. (Never use steel wool dry.) Don't be too agressive. When you're done, wipe dry and inspect. If everything is dull, let it cure up over night and then apply one more coat of oil, let it sit for a few minutes to penetrate, wipe and let dry overnight. Done. I think you'll be happy with the results. If, however, you are NOT......simply wipe it down with denatured alcohol and some 0000 wool and it'll go right back to the last coat of oil for you. Hope that helps. Dyes are your best best to darken the stock. Also, the oil you should be using is BLO, too. It'll keep warming over the years. Freel free to ask for any further help and post your results. Rome A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
Armed 2 tha Teeth		#4	[-]
Posts: 62 (10/18/09 10:55 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rome, Thanks for your help. Just so I understand this correctly since Fiebling's is not UL stabilized I will have to keep reapplying the stain for it to keep its color? Since the Behlen stains are UL stabilized I may just invest in those to work on this stock, but even then they will fade.
Cabinetman		#5	[-]
Posts: 5385 (10/18/09 11:12 AM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The fabric dye will most probably fade but the Behlen (or any other UL fixed dye) will not fade anytime soon. It's not expensive and is available. You won't have to dye it again unless you leave it in your truck in the rifle rack in the rear window LOL Rome A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
Armed 2 tha Teeth		#6	[-]
Posts: 63 (11/30/09 08:39 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rome, I am going to start this project in a few weeks, and I am looking at getting the dye now. Is this the stuff? http://www.garrettwade.com/product.asp?splid=SPLID02&pn=99P10.01&bhcd2=1259587990 What color do you prefer? I am leaning towards American Walnut. Tom
Cabinetman		#7	[-]
Posts: 5399 (11/30/09 12:14 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yep. Behlen. This stuff is a transparent dye in an alcohol base. You can apply it, wait a few minutes and apply it again and again until you get the depth of color you like. Then, let it sit overnight so all the carrier has evaporated and then do an oil on top. Now, the Behlen product is JUST COLOR. There is NO finish in it. When you apply another liquid on top, you'll get some "lift" because the dye particles are being moved so don't rub too hard. Just put the oil on easily with a good, wet rag. Let it sit for about 15 minutes, then wipe. You'll get some lift (transfer) onto your cloth but only the surface stuff. After wiping the oil, let the stock sit for 24 hours so that oil cures nicely. When the stock feels dry to your hand, apply a second coat of oil, let it sit, then wipe again and let that cure up hard overnight. At that point you can just continue apply light coats by apply it and wiping it and letting those light coats cure, too. They'll cure more rapidly because there isn't much on there. Eventually you'll get the finish you like and that should be it. Let me know how you make out. Rome A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.