New Guy with A Few MN 91/30 ex-sniper questions. Thanks in advance for the look!

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HalfCocked	New Guy with A Few MN 91/30 ex-sniper questions. Thanks in advance for the look!	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4 (11/23/09 11:43 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I bought a MN 91/30 Ex- Sniper from Aztec several years ago, and I was wondering about a few things. All I know is that it is a 1947r Izvesk (sp?) ex sniper. 1) What markings should be on the barrel or receiver if it is indeed an ex-sniper? There are two holes in the left side of the receiver that have been filled in, and a piece of wood has been spliced to the stock to cover the original place for the scope mount. That is all I know. Are there certain markings that distinguish a sniper from the others by markings on the receiver or barrel? 2) How hard would it be to find an original / aftermarket scope and mount to fit the rifle? I do not want to remove the rear sight, and I would like it to be as close to original as possible. Thanks in advance for all of your patience in answering the question.
NotPC		#1	[-]
Posts: 5558 (11/23/09 12:16 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Welcome! First, 1947 is an uncommon year for an ex-sniper and Aztec had some of the nicest refurbs ever brought in to the Country. If your rifle had a scope mounted to it, there was normally a scope number stamped on the left side of the barrel in the chamber area. It may or may not have been scrubbed during the refurb process. The "CN" and "CH" markings were used by Tula, not Izhevsk. It should have two screw holes and two holes for locator pins if it is a PU. They were not always drilled through. You can find more information on the C&R Sniper Forum and on www.7.62x54r.net. A few posts down is a link to Accumounts (thread asking for drawings) where replica scopes and mounts can be found. You can also still find original parts at auction sites and on trader boards. You will also need a sniper bolt. The original trigger/sear were replaced with a standard spec M91/30 during the refurb. It is no longer a sniper and there is no such thing as "restoration" unless you have all of the parts that were original to the rifle. You can, however build an excellent "mock" sniper from your rifle and have a more authentic sniper-type rifle when you are done than if buying a fake replica made from an ordinary M91/30 rifle. It is a worthy project and can be fun. Regards.
zeebill		#2	[-]
Posts: 3836 (11/23/09 05:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think 1946 or 47 was the last year Soviet PU snipers were made if I am remebering right. One of the ones I have left is a refurbed 1946 I got from Coles many years ago. I beg to differ on the resnipering being a worthy project and think they cause nothing but trouble down the line and indeed don't like the fake ones unless they are impossible to be passed off as real later in their life. How many people have we had post things on here thinking they have the real thing and finding later they were burned? How often does that have to happen before people realise they are usually people just starting out or who didn't do their homework and start out in a great hobby getting burned? How often do I have to look at young kids just starting out in the hobby and tell them they greatly overpaid for the fake they have? I mean what do I have to say to people to get them to figure out what happens down the line with these resnipered examples? I know I will hear epithets from this post saying it will never happen here in this case but what in the world makes you think that you are so different then others who have gone down this path? I hate to welcome a new poster with a soapbox editorial but just hear me out and try and realise the point I am trying to make. You can go through all the gyrations of it is my rifle and I can do what I want with it but try and overcome your ego and act responsibly to protect the integrity of the hobby. We sure don't need anymore free hand copies of rifles to make things more doubtful in this hobby. Only thing I would say in finality is to even equal the prices of fake or genuine parts that go into a fake sniper build today one would find it cheaper to just buy a fake complete from one of the many sources that are willing to provide them today. You must also consider the fact that as an ex-sniper the present shape of the rifle today is more important history wise than what you will have after you invest a lot of time and money destroying it. Said my piece and I feel better, hope you don't take it personally but I feel very strongly on this matter. Bill
NotPC		#3	[-]
Posts: 5560 (11/23/09 06:45 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bill, you make an excellent and valid point which I failed to elaborate on. I do agree that some permanent distinction should be made to enable one to discern any cobbled-up fake sniper from an original or authentic arsenal rebuilt one. We are not in disagreement there, my friend. Regards.
nothernug		#4	[-]
Posts: 11566 (11/24/09 05:24 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree with y'all in principle but I take some exception to the broad use of the term 'fake.' To make thinking that implies an attempt to deceive in all cases and I don't think that is at all what the original poster has in mind. Bill, you hope to educate the younger new-comer but implying he is 'making a fake' is more likely to alienate him and close his thoughts to our way of thinking. Rather address the subject of creating a 'reproduction' much as you otherwise have. That it is... First of all the absolute importance of marking it in some such way as to be virtually unmistakable for what it is. Secondly, appreciating and preserving the weapon from it's present historically correct condition into the incorrect reproduction. Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
NotPC		#5	[-]
Posts: 5566 (11/24/09 10:29 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	For a while there, InterOrdnance advertised theirs as genuine Soviet PU M91/30 snipers. They weaseled the language of the ad. The scopes and mounts were newly-made Ukrainian parts and the ads were meant to be deceptive. Letters from IO were posted here and there was a basic denial that the PU's were mock-ups. Anyone with one of those rifles could pull out that corresponding ad and claim it is an original and possibly get a poor uninformed sucker to pay a high price. They "muddied the water" a lot...for a while.
zeebill		#6	[-]
Posts: 3841 (11/25/09 08:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I stand by my comments and frankly if they are read the way they are meant to be in that a reproduction eventually no matter how well intentioned the maker may be it can and usually does become a fake for some person not aware of all the nuances of the sniper. I cautioned the poster that I didn't mean it personally and if it was taken that way I am sorry. If the truth alienates someone then they are not used to living with what I feel we should expect from them as collectors or shooters. I would say maybe in the long run we are better off sending them packing and not adding to a problem and feeding their ego's thinking they fooled the so-called experts which I feel personally sure happens daily. One can not know everything about everything but rest assured there are people who feel they do and have over-sized ego's to go along with their actions. Ah gain this is just my personal feelings on this subject and I just stated the way I felt which everyone is entitled too. I sure don't want a range war over this as a result but stand by my statements and so be it I guess. Signed the ever grumpier with age zeebill
Palimino Stripe		#7	[-]
Posts: 576 (11/29/09 03:17 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You do realize that many folks have searched their whole lives and never seen a 1947 ex-sniper. They made only a handful. I would suggest buying an $89 1942 Izhevsk 91/30 and turning that into a sniper, or better yet buying an already faux sniper on the market; it would be cheaper and you wouldn't effectively ruin an extremely rare piece... -Palimino
Ed Novak		#8	[-]
Posts: 2212 (11/29/09 02:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	zeebill wrote: I stand by my comments and frankly if they are read the way they are meant to be in that a reproduction eventually no matter how well intentioned the maker may be it can and usually does become a fake for some person not aware of all the nuances of the sniper. I cautioned the poster that I didn't mean it personally and if it was taken that way I am sorry. If the truth alienates someone then they are not used to living with what I feel we should expect from them as collectors or shooters. I would say maybe in the long run we are better off sending them packing and not adding to a problem and feeding their ego's thinking they fooled the so-called experts which I feel personally sure happens daily. One can not know everything about everything but rest assured there are people who feel they do and have over-sized ego's to go along with their actions. Ah gain this is just my personal feelings on this subject and I just stated the way I felt which everyone is entitled too. I sure don't want a range war over this as a result but stand by my statements and so be it I guess. Signed the ever grumpier with age zeebill Bill has drawn the line in the sand and I am on his side of the line. There is no way that any of us is going to dissuade all of the adventurers from making their arms into something they were not when sold-out-of-service but we can do our best to make sure that they understand that what they are doing is fraught with peril some day, down the line. Someone must hold the line, if not us, who? I've been a collector/shooter of many different arms (Swedish Mausers, LEs, MNs, M1s) for many decades and I don't have the savvy to know all the details of even one of the types; I have yet to meet anyone who is truly an "expert" on any of them (even Skip Stratton was fooled by a JJCO "parts"Lithgow he thought was "legitimate" when I presented detailed photos of the arm). Twenty years from now, I doubt that very many people will be able to discern the true/fake/replica MN. There was a standard set by the designer, produced by the arsenal and last set at the sold-out-of-service date. NRA Endowment member LECS #2
zeebill		#9	[-]
Posts: 3935 (01/13/10 04:38 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Reproduction = Fake like it or not at some time or way in it's life it becomes real to someone! The next time I get a nice young looking and just starting out collector into the shop and he wants me to appraise his genuine Russian sniper rifle and I am looking at a Century or some other maybe Aztec import someone cobbled together and sold to the guy for $900 I wil remind him he should have researched it better. These young and well intentioned people thought they got the buy of the year and they only got taken. Many people buy things on a whim and the chance that they are really making out and they get trimmed. They have always wanted to collect real valuable rifles and this is where they intend to start. You tell them that and they want to kill anyone who is a collector and ask why there are so many dishonest people in this hobby. I have had one just flat outright tell me that they wish they had stuck to street rods. Things like this just don't attract younger people to our hobby no matter how you want to paint it. I wonder how many of these small and discrete Aztec import marks have disappeared off the ex-sniper rifle they happen to be on and suddenly become real? Marcus I have always been willing to listen to your point of view and held your knowledge in great regard although not always agreeing with your opinion but things like that keep the world going around. Best Regards how ever are not forth coming to someone who says he thinks "Restored" snipers are just fine and then casually mentions he is selling some of the required parts to make them in the next paragraph. I am sorry because this action sure takes you down a knotch or two in my eyes and as I said that sorrows me. I will not allow this to become a personal fight between us and frankly will not view anymore on this thread and would go as far as to say after your undoubtable defense suggest this thread be locked and left at that which is where I thought it would lay after 2 months of no further comment. I guess your parts weren't selling so you had to bring it up? Bill
ParallaxBill		#10	[-]
Posts: 16557 (01/13/10 03:56 PM) Owner/operator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Marcus, you need to edit out the items you mention you have for sale ASAP. We have a trader board for that and only for individual personal sale items, no commercial sales without permission. Parallax *Lee Enfield Collector's Society member #3* *Mauser Shooter's Association member #17* Forum administrator for the Carolina C&R Shooting & Collecting Club,
ParallaxBill		#11	[-]
Posts: 16560 (01/14/10 03:31 PM) Owner/operator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I edited it for you. Mind the rules next time! Parallax *Lee Enfield Collector's Society member #3* *Mauser Shooter's Association member #17* Forum administrator for the Carolina C&R Shooting & Collecting Club,
Marcus		#12	[-]
Posts: 289 (01/16/10 01:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Sorry, Bill! Halfcocked, or anyone else considering restoring one of the so-called "ex-sniper" Mosin sniper rifles to it's original and most historically significant WW2 combat sniper rifle configuration, please feel free to contact me directly at vonweigert@earthlink.net for any advice and/or assistance I can offer. I might also add that subjects like restoring "ex"-snipers and very scarce and desirable 1947 Izhevsk PU rifles have been discussed many times in great detail over at the Gunboards Collectors and Sniper Rifle Forum, although I don't know if Vic has worked out all the problems with the new software and if the search feature is properly working now. '47 Izhevsk PU's are quite scarce and highly sought after by sniper collectors, with only around 2,500 made. Only a handful are known that are still in their original sniper configuration, and only one is known in the world that is in completely original condition and still has it's original scope - this is the one Lenscrafter got from RGuns a couple years back. So for most sniper collectors, restoring an ex-sniper is the only available and affordable way to add one of these great Cold War/Berlin Airlift era collectables to their collection. The Aztec rifles are especially sought after due to their generally excellent condition and the small and unoffensive import markings Aztec used. At one time I owned most of the '47 Izhevsk PU rifles Aztec had (thanks to my friend John Jones, who was the manager of Aztec at the time and hand selected many of the best ones for me), and I still have 2 of these rifles in my collection. One is an (as of yet) unrestored Aztec import that is just waiting to get the nice original scope and mount setup I have for it, the other is a restored TN Guns import I bought off the Gunboards Trader several years ago. Last Edited By: Marcus 01/16/10 01:15 AM. Edited 1 times.
Stan Pa		#13	[-]
Posts: 1495 (01/16/10 08:19 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The point of all this, is these put together snipers has destroyed the history of a rifle as when sold-out-of-service. They have no other value than the sum of their parts, and that is all. I see P U snipers all the time at gun shows being sold as originals and priced as such. When I see someone looking at one, I try to point out to them that none of the parts match the rifle as an original sniper would be. I'm with zeebill on this, it's just more B S us honest collectors have to wade through. BTW: Marcus, this is not gunboards, Please check out the purpose of this site. Stan.