Cannot resize .303 British Brass

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DoctorBill	Cannot resize .303 British Brass	Lead	[-]
Posts: 45 (01/08/10 01:58 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I am somewhat new to reloading rifle rounds - have done some pistol rounds (Dillon Square Deal). I bought two .303 British rifles (elsewhere on this Forum) and an 8mm Mauser (also here). Someone sold me about 120 used .303 British brass cases (he owned one of the .303 rifles) and I also purchased 50 new Winchester brass cases from a store. I obtained a LEE press and the Lee Dies. The problem is that the new cases cycle thru the LEE resized/deprimer easily, while the old cases will not resize - I cracked the edge of my workbench trying to press the Lee Press with the old cases ! The old cases are marked "R . P" R dot P and "F C" Some are deprimed - some not (about 50:50). They weight almost the same as the new Winchester Brass. I used Lee Die Lube. Am I doing something wrong or is this perhaps a normal situation ? Has the Brass "hardened up" perhaps ? Some comments would be appreciated. DoctorBill Much easier to put drops of H #9 on a patch than have to dip it in the bottle ! Last Edited By: DoctorBill 06/26/10 08:00 PM. Edited 1 time.
WVchuck		#1	[-]
Posts: 12850 (01/08/10 02:45 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	FC should be Federal. They should go through the sizer. R.P sounds like older Remington brass (Remington-Peters). It may not be worth the effort to try to reload those older cases. Try a different case lube too. Just don't get a case stuck in the die...that is a frustrating ordeal to get them out when they get "really" stuck in the die.
Stan Pa		#2	[-]
Posts: 1486 (01/08/10 04:17 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Something else you might want to check, shine a good light down in the cases and see if maybe they are berdan primed cases. If so, they will have 2 or more off-set flash holes instead of just a center hole. If they are berdan cases, you could damage your sizing and decapping die. Stan.
Venaticus		#3	[-]
Posts: 244 (01/08/10 04:48 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'd like to hear how the RP cases turn out. I just resized a bunch of mixed headstamp .303 brass and didn't have any problems. These were lubed pretty well, and were FC, R-P, and Norma. No problems with any of them, and I used a Lee Collet sizer die on them (all were fire-formed in my No. 4 Mk.I Savage). Good luck, Pat
WVchuck		#4	[-]
Posts: 12853 (01/08/10 04:55 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The only thing Berdans that have slipped into the boxer piles of brass have done is snap the decapping pin off, even on the indestructable Lee decapping pin. What I hate is having the rim shear off out of the shell holder and seeing that brass lodged firmly and all the way in the die.
maxima2		#5	[-]
Posts: 649 (01/08/10 06:32 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=519525 Get some Imperial Case Sizing Wax (follow the link) and you'll throw the Lee lube out. Many years ago when I had a lee press, I was trying to full length resize 30-06 and I thought the press was going to break in two! The lee lube was not cutting it. A more experienced reloader told me about Imperial wax and I've never looked back. Just wipe some on your finger and then between your finger and thumb then twirl the case between them. Put it on sparingly - you will feel how slick the case will get. Use a q-tip to put some inside the neck or on the expander ball. (You will have to clean the inside of the cases afterward.) One can lasts a long, long time. Read the reviews at the link-I think it's the best lube there is. This should make sizing much easier and may save your workbench.
Parashooter		#6	[-]
Posts: 1759 (01/08/10 09:17 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Save yourself some money and delay. Go to the local drugstore and buy a small bottle of castor oil. Smear a little on your fingers and apply sparingly to a few cases. Try sizing them. If it's now fairly easy, your problem was inadequate lubrication. But if you're still getting excessive resistance, your die interior is probably rougher than it should be - many new dies are. Fortunately, that's easy to correct by polishing with abrasive, 600 grit or finer. There are dozens of ways to polish a die interior, but my standard is to wrap a slotted hardwood dowel with common wet/dry sandpaper backed by cotton flannel (so it will conform to the die interior). Chuck this in an ordinary electric drill and feed it into the die - after a few tries and rips, you'll get the hang of it. Spin until the die gets slightly warm. Clean out the residue thoroughly, swab a light coat of castor oil inside, and try sizing again. Once you've identified and corrected the problem, use castor oil on a pad as your regular case lube. You might never want to try anything else. Last Edited By: Parashooter 01/08/10 09:30 PM. Edited 2 times.
DoctorBill		#7	[-]
Posts: 46 (01/08/10 09:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I read your replies - thanks so much. I thought about this today and wondered - I had tried to manually de-prime a couple of these recalcitrant 303 Brass shells with a 30-30 Winchester Lee Loader kit I inherited from my Dad along with the lever action rifle. You use a rod with the pin at one end and a small hammer. It will fit and it worked ! BTW - I do not see any "Berdan" type brass in the box. So...if the used Brass fits into my No4 Mk 1* or my No4 Mk 1/2 , AND if I can de-prime the cases manually with a hammer and re-prime them with the Lee Auto-Prime, then I ought to be able to reload these Brass Shells - no ? In other words, if the cases fit the rifle, I should be able to reload them (w/o resizing them). Also, I think a local store here has the Imperial Case Sizing Wax - I will look into it. I also have 50 new Winchester Brand 303 Brass for a total of about 150 rounds. Parashooter - I will try the Castor Oil thing ! Seems that that old standby works for more than just Momma'a old cure for a belly ache and constipation ! Sandpaper ! ! ! You meant Emery Cloth - yes? DoctorBill PS - Question added as an errant thought - has or does all rifle (and pistol) Brass have the exact same Brass formula. I am not sure that all "Brass" is technically the exact same formula. Slight changes to the Copper and Zinc might have been made to change the hardness and ductility. Do they add other metals to accomplish that also ? Who knows how old this Brass is...the new Winchester Brass seems so much easier to deal with ! Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/20/10 10:04 AM. Edited 4 times.
DoctorBill		#8	[-]
Posts: 47 (01/08/10 09:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Should have looked on the Internet before asking about Brass formulation in my "PS" above ! From Wikipedia: "Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties." Didn't know that ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass This is an interesting link and scrolling down shows differing alloys. So, different brands and lots and dates of manufacture could lead to many different handling properties of Ammunition Brass... if manufacturers don't use a standardized formulation. The Gubment has it's nose in most everything else, does it mandate any Brass formulation for ammunition ? DoctorBill Last Edited By: DoctorBill 01/08/10 10:07 PM. Edited 4 times.
Parashooter		#9	[-]
Posts: 1760 (01/09/10 01:11 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	DoctorBill wrote: . . . Sandpaper ! ! ! You meant Emery Cloth - yes? No, I meant what's known as "Wet or dry sandpaper". It can be found in grits down to about 1500 at hardware stores and bears little resemblance to the coarse-grit flint or garnet sandpaper with which you seem to be more familiar. Unlike emery cloth, the backing is sufficiently thin to conform to the die interior without getting stiff creases at the shoulder (which could score the die). The alloy called "cartridge brass" is pretty consistent 70/30 copper/zinc. What differs between manufacturers is the cold-working and subsequent annealing during manufacture. These processes significantly alter the metal's hardness, ductility, and strength. The R-P headstamp has been used by Remington for many years and is still used on current production. It is not an "old" headstamp. (The common older one was REM-UMC.) Your new Winchester brass is easier to size because it has not yet been fired and consequently expanded to fit the chamber. Even if your fired cases fit your rifles, you're going to have to size at least the necks to hold the bullets in place. Consistent neck-tension is one element in accurate ammunition. (If all you want is something that goes "bang", you'll still need to improvise some way to keep bullets from falling through un-sized case necks.)
DoctorBill		#10	[-]
Posts: 48 (01/09/10 07:21 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have been trying to resize this used 303 British P-P and F C Brass and comparing it to the new Winchester Brass as to how it handles. The Lee Die and Lee Loader Press will resize the New Winchester Brass to 0.332 inch OD and 0.307 ID. - used Lee Resizing Lube (White Grease in a squeeze tube). The Old Brass will only go about 1/3 of the distance down the neck before it jams. The neck is where the problem is occurring, not the lower part of the case. The Old Brass starts out at about 0.343 inch on the top of the neck. I suppose I will just have to give up on this old Brass - all 120 rounds ! That's about $50 worth of Brass here in Spokane, WA. I will buy some Castor Oil and try that as a lube. A friend of mine just told me that there is a difference in what one can load in various manufacturer's Brass - difference in shell toughness and thickness resulting in small differences in internal volume when loaded. Important if pushing for hotter loads. Hmmmm....lot to learn here ! I didn't expect to have to learn so much just to reload rifle bullets for casual target shooting. If I were hunting, I would use Factory Rounds. DoctorBill Last Edited By: DoctorBill 01/09/10 08:52 PM. Edited 8 times.
shotout		#11	[-]
Posts: 360 (01/09/10 08:03 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	This may help some till you get started. When I started loading 3 years ago. I started with brass I had fired from my own rifle or new brass. If you have any brass you did not fire in your rifle and it still has the spent primer in, if you cannot re size it in your "full" length die. I would scrap it. Chances are if it will not go in the die, If you properly lubed it, It could have been fired from an over sized chamber. Which in case would make the brass no good in my loading room. Haven't had any trouble with any of my Lee tools. Have loaded only about 1000 rounds in 3 years. If it will go in the die and the decapping pin doesn't punch the spent primer out, check for correct adjustments. The pin will slip if not tight enough. If the cases were fired in an over sized chamber, when you get near the bottom of the stroke and the case looks like it is starting to bulge over the die. been there done that. My Gibbs 2A1 has an over size chamber. I cannot re size anything that had more than 75% to never exceed load. Any thing under is fine.shotout
shotout		#12	[-]
Posts: 361 (01/09/10 08:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	On second thought I would do a chamber cast before going any father. Those cases look a bit big/fat.shotout
DoctorBill		#13	[-]
Posts: 49 (01/09/10 09:15 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Shotout - I do not yet know if the spent Brass was shot in my rifle, so until I find out, I will fire some factory rounds in both of my 303's and examine the Brass afterward. The Brass I have been talking about above came from the previous owner of one of my 303's, the No4 Mk1. But I have not been able to re-contact him again. I seem to remember him saying he had not fired the Mk1 very much, so maybe those 120 rounds of Brass were obtained elsewhere....hopefully. He may not even remember - he's getting on... A friend of mine into reloading in a BIG way has some "cerro-safe" alloy (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1143.html) which he would loan me to do a cast. The weather here in Spokane, WA has been so miserably wet and cold this winter that I haven't been able to go shoot the three (new) used rifles I recently acquired. Damn ! I grew up in the suburban Chicago area and I miss the sun coming out in winter ! Maybe it was 10° outside, but the sun came out and it wasn't always wet. Here it snows, melts, rains, freezes, melts, on and on with continual clouds - and high wind. Coastal weather 300 miles inland ! Like being in England, I'm told.... A last thought - If my rifle(s) have oversized chambers (wear?), is there anything I can do to fix that - or do I just live with it? New Barrel ? DoctorBill
shotout		#14	[-]
Posts: 362 (01/09/10 09:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	With my 2A1 Gibbs model, I fire starting loads and some managed recoil in it. The light loads don't seem to blow the cases out as much or they retract better than the full loads. What I would do is get a box of factory ammo and fire a couple rounds and check the measurements. See if they will go into the die. shotout
brass rat		#15	[-]
Posts: 2108 (01/09/10 11:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have a #4 Long Branch that expands the neck so large that the first time I tried to resize them I thought I was trying to resize steel cases. Anything I shoot in it now I run through the collet die first then the full length die. Before the posts start, I FL size them because I have 8 rifles chambered in .303 and barely have time to shoot let alone keep track of which brass goes with which rifle. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why not join us at Milsurp After Hours handloading forum
hiawatha		#16	[-]
Posts: 54 (01/15/10 07:22 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	.303 cases live longer if they are neck sized only until they get to where you have to FL size them. That's because many SMLEs have oversized chambers to help with extraction. Remember, milsurps weren't made with reloaders in mind! If the brass you can't resize fits in the chamber of either of your SMLEs, it could work for you by neck sizing only. It's also possible the brass you can't resize has already been reloaded many times, in which case it should probably be sold for scrap.
DoctorBill		#17	[-]
Posts: 55 (01/17/10 10:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	These ~120 cases will neck resize ONLY about 1-2 mm down the neck before they jam in the die. The lower case seems to be fine. Doesn't even touch the case there.... Given that, I am wondering if I could reload these cases when a portion of the neck is resized enough to take and hold the bullet ? I don't want to spend $40 obtaining a Lee Collet Die just for 120 cases, but am too cheap to toss them... http://www.leeprecision.c...catalog/dies-collet.html But then again, if my NEW BRASS expands out like these used ones did.....I may have to buy one. DoctorBill PS - Newby Question....never used a "Collet Die" - if my regular die jams with these used 303's, why won't a 'Collet Die' jam also...it uses the same press as the reloading dies - yes ? Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/20/10 10:06 AM. Edited 1 times.
Parashooter		#18	[-]
Posts: 1765 (01/17/10 10:53 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"I am wondering if I could reload these cases when a portion of the neck is resized enough to take and hold the bullet?" - Yes, if the cases will fit in your rifle without full length sizing. Have you tried polishing the die interior yet? If that doesn't help, try sizing with the decapping/expanding assembly removed to ensure it's not the source of interference. The collet die operates on a different mechanical principle, contacting only the neck, with generous clearance at body and shoulder. Looking at your latest photo, it appears to me that the case is contacting the die interior both at the neck and at the case body immediately below the shoulder (on the deltoid, as it were). This is normal but you might not know that the body contact significantly adds to felt resistance. You can verify the contact by "smoking" a case with a candle flame and observing where the soot is removed during partial sizing. Perhaps because you're accustomed to the low level of resistance encountered when sizing pistol cases, you're simply stopping your stroke when resistance is greater than you're used to. Rifle cases require both better lube and more force than most pistol cases. Assuming your die is properly lubed, polished, and adjusted, you may simply have to apply more pressure to the handle. It may also be useful to back off the sizer die 1/2 turn or more since some dies displace the shoulder more than necessary to fit the rifle's chamber. Last Edited By: Parashooter 01/17/10 04:38 PM. Edited 1 times.
DoctorBill		#19	[-]
Posts: 56 (01/17/10 04:44 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I tried inking the 303 top shoulder and resizing it. Yes the shoulder is being involved...so the top of the case just at the top curve is being sized - didn't see that before ! Thanks for the tip ! and, no...I have not tried to 'polish' the die yet. Last resort - I could ruinate the Die, as it were ! Since I did not see that the case was being involved (thought just the neck), I was not applying 'One Shot' to the shoulder ! After raising the Die several turns, lubing the shoulder and retrying this process I got as far as this....see the ink has been removed on the shoulder! I am still worried that the force I am using will break my bench ! My work bench has 'cracked' already - how much force is required ?! And if this Press jams, I am truly S.O.L. I may look for a 303 collet die, if my local sports discount store has them - which I doubt. Give me some time to study this..... DoctorBill Two years ago, I had cataract surgery and have still not gotten used to being limited in my sight. Closer examination (better with marker pen ink applied) shows the case shoulder is being sized. Damned eyes....need three different pairs of glasses. Oh well...I could be blind, so I'll quit complaining. Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/20/10 10:08 AM. Edited 7 times.
Parashooter		#20	[-]
Posts: 1766 (01/17/10 05:23 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You cannot "ruinate" the die with 500 or 600-grit wet/dry paper unless you're a total klutz. Sounds like you need a better bench and/or a better press. Given the same press setup, full-length sizing a fired .303 case takes about four or five times more force than sizing a 9mm or .38 Special. The multiple is even greater if you're accustomed to carbide pistol dies. To put it another way, you can normally F.L. size a pistol case with one finger on the press handle but for a well-expanded .303, you'll use your whole arm and lean into it. Just for a sanity check, try this sequence - 1. Disassemble your sizer die and thoroughly clean the interior. 2. Swab the die interior with a patch moistened with castor oil, leaving a thin film. 3. Reassemble the die, being sure the decapping pin extends only about 1/4" below the die mouth. 4. Raise the press ram and screw the die into the press until it contacts the shellholder. 5. Unscrew the die 1/2 turn. 6. Swab the entire exterior of a fired case with castor oil, leaving a thin film. 7. Size the case, applying enough force so the ram rises fully. 8. Report your result here. Last Edited By: Parashooter 01/17/10 05:39 PM. Edited 1 times.