FMJs for game, what's...

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eli griggs	FMJs for game, what's...	Lead	[-]
Posts: 739 (11/03/09 08:50 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : fmj, whitetail your experience and recommendations in milsurp calibers? After ehailstone's excellent postings where he discusses using FMJ ammo, I made a call to my state wildlife commission (NC) and was surprised to hear from my local warden that it is legal here, so, I'd like to hear your opinions and techniques for taking smaller game like whitetails, feral pigs and black bears with jacketed loads. Do you use surplus or off the shelf loads like the Winchester Metric? Do you reload FMJ for hunting? Where are you aiming for the kill? "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~ "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity". - Albert Einstein WANTED - Lee Loaders - 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, .303 Brit WANTED- Turkey and Goose feathers for fletching arrows
RLMbassist		#1	[-]
Posts: 257 (11/25/09 09:39 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	FMJ is not legal here in MO, but if I was going to do it I would go with whatever you most accurate target load is. Even a FMJ is going to tumble some and make a nasty wound channel. Shot placement would mean everything though.
ehailstone		#2	[-]
Posts: 116 (12/17/09 06:56 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here in Alaska, FMJ's are legal. Our version of "Solids" on a budget. I use Czeck LPS in my Mosins, as I have found it to be a wicked Tumbler, and often within inches of entry. The Czeck is very accurate, and very reliable at -40. No hangfires, no extraction problems. The biggest bonus to hunting with milsurp is that I get to have enough to keep on shooting and now the gun/bullet combo very well, and I belive it adds to my sucess. If a rifle is that good, I carve my name into it. If the ammo is that good, I buy as much as I can. Being legal is #1 Being accurate is right up there as well, placement is everything. They drive deeeeeep, tumble and git 'er done The Winchester didnt shoot very well for me. I used it up on Rabbits with 10 - 50 yard head shots and am getting up a bunch of Bunny loads with cast bullets and 10 grn charges. Belive me , the highpower blasting was a lotta fun I just couldnt do well with the winchesters at any decent distance. As much as possible, I do Brain shots, but past 150 yards, I'll move to the neck. If thats no good, Ill put one in the Chest. Im not a bad shot, but 300 yards is about max for me, as I can usually get much closer, though Winter sees me doing some long shots to the chest across wide open Tundra. just cat be helped and they are gonna run further with each shot......and so it go's........ Summer shooting is rarely more than 100 yards, more often much less. Thats head shot season, as well as Fall hunting in the rivers. Close up and quick. I have alot of practice, and since I butcher all my own meat, I know the anatomy of the animals I hunt very well. Knowlage is power Know your gun, know your target, and beyond ptihbrjrm
dc7x64		#3	[-]
Posts: 3 (12/17/09 05:43 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A friend of mine uses Black Hill's 168 GR hollow point match ammo in his .308 Steyr SSG. I cant say that I would recommend this as I dont know anything about the construction of the bullet Black Hill's uses. But I have helped him skin several whitetails and the wound channel definitely shows signs of rapid expansion. All were well placed, broadside lung shots. Another friend of mine used surplus Greek 30/06 ammo, bullet weight unknown, to bag a 180 pound eight point. The bullet somehow had interaction with the spine and that was the end of him! Maybe just luck I dont know. I would still just stick with a good soft point!
Stan in SC		#4	[-]
Posts: 1818 (01/13/10 07:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thru experimentation I have found that S&B soft nose shoots to the same point of impact as does military FMJ light ball in my rifles.In South Carolina we are required to use soft point ammunition.I have read with great interest Hailstone's description of his use of FMJ and it's effects. Stan in SC The more I listen,the more I hear....and vice versa. The LT-2 sight adjuster.Have you adjusted today? Geezer is as geezer does.
richp41		#5	[-]
Posts: 1453 (01/14/10 12:03 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Eli, We can't use FMJ ammo in Alabama either. Ed is a superior hunter out of survival necessity and his one comment pretty well explains why he has luck with the 7.62x54R and FMJ bullets-- they hit and TUMBLE causing one helluva lot of damage. I've fired the same ammo he uses into tree stumps and found everyone had tumbled -- and penetrated beyond all of my expectations. That much said, not all FMJs tumble. Some pass thru with minimal internal damage, and unless you can match Ed's marksmanship level you will probably experience much more game loss. Also understand that Ed does his shooting with iron sights and I haven't seen many hunters in my entire life that are even moderately accurate at 300 yards with open sights. Most match bullets with hollow points are very frangible, very frequently coming competely apart and penetrating minimally. Some soft point bullets also come apart very quickly. I hit a deer in the shoulder with a Sierra 150 gr PSP and it looked like he had been hit by a grenade. What small pieces reached his lungs were like very small shrapnel and he went a long way before he expired. I never looked back, and never used anything but Nosler Partition bullets after that for really terrific results. Ed, Good seeing your post again. Hope you and the family enjoyed a great holiday season and are doing well. Don't be a stranger around our site. You contibute an awful lot to our knowledge and enjoyment. Rich P
ParallaxBill		#6	[-]
Posts: 16561 (01/14/10 06:27 PM) Owner/operator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Eli, you better check the regs I think it is big time illegal for game in NC. Even if it were legal it is highly unethical since you are likely to punch a hole the size of your bullet through the deer therefore not using much of the energy that could be transferred to the animal by using a far more appropriate soft nosed hunting round. Hunting loads are designed to transfer maximum energy and lethality to a game animal without the worries of high velocity "shoot throughs" that could go on for a long way. DON'T DO IT! Parallax *Lee Enfield Collector's Society member #3* *Mauser Shooter's Association member #17* Forum administrator for the Carolina C&R Shooting & Collecting Club, Last Edited By: ParallaxBill 01/14/10 06:30 PM. Edited 1 times.
ParallaxBill		#7	[-]
Posts: 16562 (01/14/10 06:46 PM) Owner/operator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well, I just checked and cannot find restrictions against it but there should be. Eli, take my word for it, it's a bad idea and most states are smart enough to realize it even SC where I hunt. Also, it is a myth that hardball ammo tumbles upon impact with flesh unless the particular projectile was designed to do so. The only one I can think of that was at one time designed that way as the 5.56 Nato. Most 30 cals will drill straight on through a deer without deflecting much at all unless they hit bone. One more thing. Shoot for the heart/lungs on deer. It is the largest target area, allows for some slight errors in aiming without maiming your prey. Head shots are not good unless you have extreme confidence that you can make them and should be limited to short range. Neck shots are also not all that reliable and really offer no advantages over the heart/lung "vitals" shot. The latter will kill a deer every time with the right bullet designed for hunting. Parallax *Lee Enfield Collector's Society member #3* *Mauser Shooter's Association member #17* Forum administrator for the Carolina C&R Shooting & Collecting Club, Last Edited By: ParallaxBill 01/14/10 06:51 PM. Edited 1 times.
thedoveshooter		#8	[-]
Posts: 92 (01/15/10 12:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Couldn't say it better Bill... But then again, you can do as you please, I just try to be as ethical and legal as possible. In my opinion, as long as you take came down quick and clean, I guess the method doesn't matter (within limitations of course). Here in Texas FMJ are legal, its just that I've never met anyone who has ever wanted to use them Ehail seems to be a competent and confident shooter and with that he takes down game ethically. IF you hit EXACTLY where you are aiming it won't matter what you are shooting (hense bowhunting). As ehail said "Knowlage is power; know your gun, know your target, and beyond." He follows this and is successful and ethical. I've been hunting for 23 years now and have shot all my big game in the shoulder, that's just where I prefer to aim. Anyway, just my two cents...
eli griggs		#9	[-]
Posts: 756 (01/21/10 01:41 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for all the good feedback. Actually, I was/am simply curious as to what other lower 48 hunters use, especially after reading what Ehailstone and other hunters have written about taking game with it. You see, while perusing this '09-10 season regulations a few months back, I noticed I could not find anything in the N.C. game-book prohibiting FMJ, so I had a speak with a Game Warden for the straight skinny on what I had always believed was an illegal bullet for hunting and I was very surprised it is not outlawed. That started me wondering who else was using this and what benefits did they gain from it? Where Alaskan hunters like Ehailstone have a reasonable need to use this ammo, why would someone else, not in a likewise extreme environment, use this stuff? IIRC, some Yugo fmj ammo has a hollow tip beneath the jacket and some .303 British had wood slivers in the tip; what other surplus has a jacket designed to tumble or dive? Thinking about it, it seems a fair number of recreation hunters like myself, have taken generally taboo practices like using FMJs and confused them for actual laws. Frankly I was surprised with several items I found in the NC Regulations, stuff I had always thought was prohibited by law but is not. Personally, I'm pretty happy with the Remington Express SP and cast loads, I've yet to hear of the whitetail or black bear (average Carolinas variarty) that needed more. Personally, I've never considered using a fmj for my own use because I've always known of it's destructive potential and I thought it was outlawed under the principle of "Wanton Wastage" but that's simply not the case in NC. Cheers "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~ "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity". - Albert Einstein WANTED - Lee Loaders - 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, .303 Brit WANTED- Turkey and Goose feathers for fletching arrows
ehailstone		#10	[-]
Posts: 117 (01/22/10 09:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	We all have our ways, and none wrong by any means. I just post what I do , and enjoy learning from you guys. The Russian 5.45X39 is an extreamly well known tumbler, as was the Nato 5.56 55gr, before todays very stable 62 gr. came into use. Heres a vid I have posted before, and the effects of the tumbling Czeck; Its a bit more destructive on Caribou, often wasting as much meat than a soft point of equal grain. Bones just mush and become projectiles too. And heres a vid of a 150 yard shot to the neck, which would have killed 'em as his arteries were shredded and he was gushing blood, but I took a second shot, placeing about 2 inches higher and hitting bone. The effects of the FMJ into the spine tell for themselfs. No matter what kind of rifle/ammo combo I find, if its accurate and reliable, I use it untill I wear it out. Im not a bad marksman at all, but most of my shooting is done fairly close up. Might add , too, that no matter the type of bullet I'm using, soft point or FMJ, .22lr, ect., I often put a follow up shot into any animal that has not yet dead. Rabbits to Moose, I like to see them go no further, as they sometimes will. Better safe than sorry, all the way around. No matter what you use for bullets, use your brain stay legal, and may you hit what your aiming at. ptihbrjrm
eli griggs		#11	[-]
Posts: 760 (01/24/10 06:54 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ehailstone, thank you for the videos and other info, it's always nice to have your perspective on these topics. While I don't use FMJs, except in the case of .22 rimfire, an overlooked exception to what I wrote above, it seems perfectly natural to me for folks whom depend so heavily on harvesting the quantities of game as you do, to use FMJs or whatever is needed, to drop animals as quickly as possible. Perhaps you can share a tally of the various game animals together with weapons/ammo you need to harvest in an average year, including any for furs or cooperative hunts on whales, etc? Finally, I hope my curiosity about FMJs has not been mistaken for criticisms of other peoples choices, like I wrote earlier, I just like to hear other folks views on subjects like this, so if someone has something else to share, we're all ears, so to speak. Eli "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~ "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity". - Albert Einstein WANTED - Lee Loaders - 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, .303 Brit WANTED- Turkey and Goose feathers for fletching arrows
coloradosherpa.britishmilitari...		#12	[-]
Posts: 2 (03/04/10 03:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Back when I was a young punk teenager I shot MANY white tails with FMJ 303 British, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, & 7.62 nato (308 Win). They will kill deer if hit somewhere vital. The only quick kills that did not have to be tracked were shots into the spine or brain. They will work but I would really not recommend them unless under semi controlled circumstances i.e. from one of those "deer stands" that are basically a tree house sitting over a food plot, or perhaps like ehailstone in AK. His shots are not far and he is an exceptional marksman who knows exactly where the vitals are at any angle. Like I said they will kill but are FAR from the best choice and in the hands of a normal hunter probably should not be considered. I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Winston Churchill If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. Winston Churchill The power of man has grown in every sphere, except over himself. Winston Churchill You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill Orwell did write, in his essay on Kipling, that the latter's "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." (1942)
M39Scout		#13	[-]
Posts: 1935 (03/04/10 06:51 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	richp41 wrote: Eli, We can't use FMJ ammo in Alabama either. Ed is a superior hunter out of survival necessity and his one comment pretty well explains why he has luck with the 7.62x54R and FMJ bullets-- they hit and TUMBLE causing one helluva lot of damage. I've fired the same ammo he uses into tree stumps and found everyone had tumbled -- and penetrated beyond all of my expectations. That much said, not all FMJs tumble. Some pass thru with minimal internal damage, and unless you can match Ed's marksmanship level you will probably experience much more game loss. Also understand that Ed does his shooting with iron sights and I haven't seen many hunters in my entire life that are even moderately accurate at 300 yards with open sights. Most match bullets with hollow points are very frangible, very frequently coming competely apart and penetrating minimally. Some soft point bullets also come apart very quickly. I hit a deer in the shoulder with a Sierra 150 gr PSP and it looked like he had been hit by a grenade. What small pieces reached his lungs were like very small shrapnel and he went a long way before he expired. I never looked back, and never used anything but Nosler Partition bullets after that for really terrific results. Ed, Good seeing your post again. Hope you and the family enjoyed a great holiday season and are doing well. Don't be a stranger around our site. You contibute an awful lot to our knowledge and enjoyment. Rich P Rich, According to a friend of mine, who is a game warden, "Though not "technically legal" you can use FMJ ammo on Feral Hogs. No game warden in the state is going to bust you for taking out Feral Hogs with FMJ. They are a nuisance animal and not strictly considered a game animal." If you are going hunting for wild hogs in AL, you might want to check with the local game warden to be sure, but it sounds like they will allow FMJ for "nuisance animals". Good Shooting and God Bless!! Darrell "Nicht schlecht, Herr Specht"
shotout		#14	[-]
Posts: 398 (03/08/10 08:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Expanding bullets here in Georgia. But a few years ago they changed the cal. for Deer. "Any" center fire, hand gun or rifle. That was a surprise for me. I would have to be very close for "some" of the the hand guns. Some guy's were coyote hunting in the next county over at night a few nights ago with info-red scopes. Killed the Game warden, shot in the head. "Claimed" they were coyote hunting. Even the Military night scopes I used in the 70's were better at identifying objects than that. Unless he was on his hands and knees. Poor excuse for those guys.shotout