[Surplus Rifle.Com's New Article:]
Slug, Measure, & Match: Using the Right Bullet for the Right Barrel Diameter
By Mark Trope & R. Ted Jeo
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| Author | Comment | ||
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hiawatha |
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If your local source doesn't have the collet die, try MidwayUSA. They might well have it.
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DoctorBill |
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Is it too improper to swear here ?
Holy crap ! " Just for a sanity check..." your words... I took the die apart. Ran Hoppe's thru it with a patch. Came out light-dark color. Cleaned the pin with Hoppe's (had brass color on the expander - came right off.) Wiped Die inside and pin lengthwise with Castor Oil on a Q-Tip. Reassembled with pin out 0.25 inch. (same as before). Screwed into press until touching shellholder - backed off 1/2 turn - tightened it. Wiped the old used cases with Castor Oil (inside of neck also). Ran the cases thru the Die. Went in and out like they were buttered ! What the Hell happened ? I had had the pin out, cleaned off, oiled and reassembled. No go. I had adjusted the Die up and down. No go. Now it works ! Thank you Parashooter ! But as to why and what and how - I am stymied.... There was nothing inside the Die. No chunks of Brass, zip.... How strange. This is embarrassing - and a good lesson. DoctorBill ---> a very happy camper right now !
Last Edited By: DoctorBill
01/17/10 07:07 PM.
Edited 5 times.
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Parashooter |
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New dies are sometimes shipped with a preservative coating that isn't a very good lubricant. Your problems likely came from -
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DoctorBill |
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OK....
I "had skipped the elementary die-cleaning step." Didn't know about that....looked clean and oiled. Would not have expected any reason to clean the Die right out of the box. "Not yet knowing whose advice is worthwhile." A general, all-around, lifetime problem.... As one of my old bosses (a PhD Director of Research at Miles Pharmaceuticals) once said to me, "About 90% of what you are told and 50% of what you read is complete bulls**t." More....I ran about 25 cases thru the Die. Started to get harder. Some cases were very hard - Halfway thru - opened press and rotated the case - finished easily (?) Took Die apart to look at expander pin - see photo. ![]() I suspect now that the INSIDE of the cases are too dirty. Whatever powder was used left quite a lot of 'residue' that is hard grit (?) maybe. The Q-Tip with Castor Oil is becoming dark from wiping inside the neck. Am I wrong ? If not, how do you clean used cases on the INSIDE ? Why would smokeless powder leave such a heavy residue ? Boil them in soapy water ? Some kind of solvent ? Slowly getting there. Learning.... Edited in later....yes - it is the residue (dirt) inside the case. Cleaned the Die again...smooth....have to clean the cases insides somehow. DoctorBill
Last Edited By: DoctorBill
02/20/10 10:11 AM.
Edited 5 times.
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Parashooter |
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The inside of a fired case is normally covered with fine, gritty soot - which does no real harm to anything but will eventually make the expander squeak on
case withdrawal. The usual remedy is to apply lube to the case neck using a suitably-sized bristle brush, simultaneously cleaning and lubing. Dry lubricants
are preferred, as they do not contaminate the powder. You can get a neat little kit for this job at under $15 - or improvise something cheaper.
I use such a kit with castor oil, rubbing a little bit into the brush with my fingertips - but novices might do better with the dry mica included. If sizing effort increased 10 cases after cleaning and lubing the die, it's probable your exterior case lubrication is inadequate. Adjust the quantity of lube applied until that doesn't happen. When you get "lube dents" in the shoulder, you'll know you've gone overboard - clean out the die and start over. Such dents are harmless and iron out when fired. You will experience significantly less need for lube if you polish the die interior as previously advised. The soot is from the powder, but the grit comes from primers. Logically enough, it only gets on the expander/decapper, and doesn't ordinarily migrate to the case exterior or the rest of the die. It adheres quite firmly to the case and isn't readily soluble in water. It varies with powder/primer chemistry and adds up with successive uses of a case.
Sectioned cases showing interior soot. Only the once-fired South African case has escaped without much of a coating. The four U.S. Boxer-style cases on the right were reloaded many times, are heavily sooted, and also show thinning ahead of the web - explained at "Headspace 101 for .303's" |
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DoctorBill |
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I am actually slathering on quite a lot of Castor Oil - so outer case lube doesn't
seem to be the problem. Buildup of "stuff" from the residue onto the inner expander more likely - has to squeeze out as the neck goes in and out. Freshly cleaned Die is smooth like you know what. You have a "bottle Brush" thing to clean and lube the inside of the neck. I know - I didn't ask..... If I can find some type of "Test Tube Brush" that will go inside the case, I might be able to knock some of the residue (Inner Brass Crud) loose and clean out the neck as it passes thru....I will look into that (being a Chemist). Isn't Hoppe's supposed to dissolve Powder Residue ? Box says contains Kerosene and Ethanol (plus ammonia - oops, bad for Brass!). Maybe I can figure something out.... I see you had some graphics (pictures) right at hand covering this problem. I think I am now on the right path....unless some new bugaboo pops up. It would be nice if all newbies at rifle reloading read this thread first. Wish I had known - this thread wouldn't have happened. DoctorBill
Last Edited By: DoctorBill
01/17/10 09:52 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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Parashooter |
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OK, Doc. It's clear you're hard to convince. I've been offering the best I've learned from 50 years of handloading, including the concept that
the grit inside the case doesn't migrate outside and muck things up. It's possible I might be right about this - and polishing the die, too.
Using an oily solvent like Hoppe's inside cases isn't a good idea. Unless the cases are subsequently washed, solvent residues can degrade primers that are installed later. Basically, you'd be creating a real problem attempting to solve one that isn't. If you absolutely must do something about case (body) interiors, invest in a vibratory tumbler, which will mechanically clean cases inside and out with a minimum of fuss and handling and does help prevent scratches to your dies by removing range crud (sometimes quite abrasive stuff) from cases you've picked up.
Last Edited By: Parashooter
01/17/10 11:30 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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DoctorBill |
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In what way am I hard to convince ?
Been listening to you and following your advice. My die got clogged up from the residue inside the case which accumulated on the expansion die on the deprimer rod. Apparently the grit inside does migrate toward the neck - got into my die.... Nothing accumulated on the outer die as evidenced from when I ran a patch thru it. The inner die was full of 'stuff'. I went out and obtained a bottle of Castor Oil. I will find a small 'test tube brush' from the Lab where I work (teach chemistry) to clean out the rifle Brass. No worries.... What the heck - I may invent a GOOD way to clean the residue out of cartridges ! After all - I be a chemist...and a wiseacre.
DoctorBill
Last Edited By: DoctorBill
01/17/10 11:39 PM.
Edited 5 times.
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eb in oregon |
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Doctor Bill,
Don't sweat it. Anybody that doesn't follow "Parashooters" advice to the letter, immediately, followed by genuflecting, and humble mumblings about how "ignorant" you've been, draws immediate and caustic replies. It makes no difference how much experience you've got, it's NEVER as good, nor as "educated" as his. And mind you, the attitude problem is ALWAYS yours. He is perfect. Meant every word. eb
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Last Edited By: eb in oregon
01/18/10 11:07 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Parashooter |
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Maybe we just have a failure to communicate. The expander, which is part of the decapping stem on a Lee .303 die, isn't itself called a "die".
(An "expander die" is a complete assembly, expander and die body, with the sole function of expanding case necks, and not normally part of a die set
for bottleneck rifle cases. See photo below.) It certainly does collect crud from the neck interior and when really cruddy we can encounter strong resistance
to withdrawing the case, often accompanied by an unpleasant screech. Treating neck interiors with a suitably-lubed bristle brush eliminates this problem very
effectively. Grit on the decapper/expander doesn't normally get dragged outside the case in sufficient quantity to cause problems inserting the case into
the die. Excessive liquid inside-neck lube can build up on the stem immediately above the expander and may spill onto the case mouth and the die body interior.
(This is why novices are better off using dry lube until they learn how much liquid lube is "too much" - your fine picture of the expander shows
you're applying far too much liquid inside the necks.)
"In what way am I hard to convince? . . . Been listening to you and following your advice." Well, on 1/8/10 I advised you to polish and clean your sizer. Had you done so, we could have moved on to something else a week ago. I like Lee dies and own about a dozen sets, but I've yet to see a new Lee rifle sizer that arrived with a first-class interior micro-finish and wouldn't benefit from a good polishing and cleaning. (New Lee expanders also need some final polishing, which will reduce the brass residue you've observed on yours.)
Expander (right) plus die body (center) make up an "expander die". (Pliers and case on left irrelevant to this discussion.) |
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DoctorBill |
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Alright.
Let's put this issue to rest and move on. These cases I have are full of 'whatever'. I do not have any 'disposable income' as they call it, so 120 cases means a lot to me (I pinch pennies - a long habit of a lifetime - so I can buy other things I want). Therefore - I am going to finger out how to clean this stuff out of the cases. - period. If I run into this again, I will be ready. Consider that I am onto a conundrum which I wish to Sherlock Holmes on....my right as an old fart, 67 year old American male with not much to keep himself from going crazy.... I know Ammonia degrades Brass. No ammonia ! Hoppe's has ammonia in it ! Says so on the box ! But it has Kerosene and Ethanol (alcohol). It supposedly is a solvent to clean powder residue from the barrels of geshootzensicks. This is a clue. So maybe Kerosene, Ethanol, Isopropanol, Chlorinated Hydrocarbons, etc might dissolve this stuff. I could scrape it out dry and study what makes it dissolve.....some think I'm wasting my time. I don't care. Once I have a solvent I can use, drying it out is the next step so as not to affect the primers later on. Blah, blah, blah..... BTW - Parashooter has helped me quite a lot. We are each different in our own ways. Me - I am nearly perfect. Just ask my wife and kids....everyone loves me. I should run for President. DoctorBill |
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eb in oregon |
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A simple liquid solution to clean brass.
1 quart of water, 1/4 cup white vineger, 1 small squirt of liquid dish soap. Put in a big plastic, water tight container along with your decapped brass and shake until your arms are about to fall off. Take a break (smoke, coffee, watch your favorite soap opera) and shake it again. When you get to the point your going to throw the whole thing into the trash and buy some new cases, remove your brass and rinse in cool water, agitating frequently. Do this several times, letting the water run into your container or strainer for several minutes, flushing the brass clean. Stand your cases on a cookie tray, or something similar. Dry in an oven set on low. You can dry them in the sun (hard to do in the winter) or under a heat lamp, or on a wood stove (don't let them get too warm) and your "good to go." Insure that you've flushed throughly or the vineger can discolor your brass.
If you have something really bad in your brass you may want to try this several times. I use this solution for badly discolored brass run in a rock tumbler. Comes out looking like new, inside and out. Best to decap first though, if you let them sit it can cause corrosion in the primer pocket, and it cleans them pretty well too.
eb
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Last Edited By: eb in oregon
01/18/10 11:03 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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maxima2 |
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An old bore brush slightly larger than the inside case neck diameter chucked in a drill will clean out the necks. Run it inside the case for a few seconds and
you're done. Be sure to lube the inside of the case necks before sizing and clean off all lube before loading.
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Parashooter |
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In bottleneck-style cartridges, the inside of case necks requires lubrication to avoid friction as the sized case is withdrawn from the sizer/decapper/expander
die assembly. My experience is that the powder/primer residue is not a primary issue. Given adequate lubrication, the presence or absence of the sooty residue
in the neck has no significant effect on friction. The key is adequate lubrication. Various dry lubes can provide this with no chance of
contaminating powder or primers. Graphite, molybdenum disulfide, and finely-ground mica are commonly used by dipping each case neck before sizing into a small
container with about 3/8" of lubricant. Enough of the powdered lube adheres to the neck interior to reduce friction to an acceptable level, despite the
thin layer of residue usually present. Dry lubes may also be applied with a small brush, but this is generally less effective at leaving an adequate quantity
inside the neck. Liquid or colloidal lubricants can also be applied with a brush or spray, but learning to control the quantity of lube in the case neck takes
some time and experimentation. Too much oily/greasy lube inside the case will contaminate powder or primers, degrading performance, and can also cause powder
to stick in the neck during charging, bridging the opening and making a mess with automated charging equipment.
Below the case neck, there is normally a fairly thin but tenacious layer of residue adhered to the case interior. It is hard and rather brittle - bits of it commonly break away from the brass wall during sizing because it is less elastic than the metal to which it adheres. If you invert and tap previously-fired cases over a clean sheet of paper right after full-length sizing, you'll soon collect a small quantity. You'll also find that some is ejected along with the primer and falls onto the ram and press frame wherever the spent primers go. Aside from getting your tools and bench slightly dirty, the residue appears to do no harm. Although at bit more is added to the case interior with each firing, even after 30 or more firings it hasn't accumulated enough thickness to alter either appearance or function - probably some of it gets burned or carried away during combustion of each subsequent charge. (Black powder residue is another matter, it is thick and corrosive but readily soluble in water and cases for such use are normally washed after firing.) |
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shotout |
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I think Parashooter may have hit on the problem. If you should clean the rifle more often when using Black Powder, shouldn't the cases also have a cleaning
too. I would ask the person you got the brass from if he used BP. I have not ran into anything like this. Of course I started with new brass and factory ammo.
But I also cleaned my dies before using them. I don't even have any trouble with the cases fired in the rifle that leaves no shoulder.
When I first started I did get a little too much lube on 3 or 4 cases but quickly got the feel for it. I agree and believe everything Parashooter told me, and it all came true. We gave each other a hard when I first started, But I was Skeyed then. ![]() shotout.
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Parashooter |
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I think it's safe to assume your .303 cases were probably not fired with black powder loads. Very few handloaders today would choose black for a cartridge
that's been successfully employing smokeless powder for over a century. Every so often, however, some poor fool tries it and quickly discovers that black
powder fouling is a real problem in 10" twist Enfield rifling unless you swab out the bore between shots. Don't ask how I know this!
Last Edited By: Parashooter
01/18/10 11:50 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Smokepole50 |
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Try orange un-sweetened cool-aid and water to clean brass. We called it bug juice in the Navy but it cleaned brass damage control lamps bright and shinny. You
may need several packs of the un-sweetened cool-aid to get the citric acid level up to the level needed to clean the brass. I have no idea how this would
affect the brass strength but it will probably be clean. Work it may, shine it must!
Smokepole50 |
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eb in oregon |
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Interesting concept that; Orange Kool Aid. I'll have to try that one of these days. Vinegar is also a mild acid, but I've just let the brass sit for a
while in my recommended solution (not my idea, I got it from an article read years ago) and not had much luck. You really need agitation to get it to work. If
your "Bug Juice" works without agitation it is a superior method. And, using either method, just thoroughly rinsing the brass in cool, clear water is
enough to insure there are no problems with brass integrity. The chemical itself will only "etch" the surface enough to remove corrosion, and washing
the brass will be sufficient to stop any chemical action/reaction.
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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WVchuck |
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But can you add sugar to it and finish it off by making a a cold drink after it's used for cleaning?
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Smokepole50 |
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You might be able to add sugar and yeast and make some WVa hillbilly orange-aid wine.........
The nitro-celouse residue from the powder might even keep you from getting a
hang-over the next morning if your still alive.
Smokepole50 |
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