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dutchmills |
Question for Doc Av |
Lead | |
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Just curious Doc, but do you have any idea as to why the Turks stayed with the WW-I loading of the 7.92 x 57? The Germans changed over in the mid-30's to
the 198 grain boat tail because it extended the range of the MG-34, and they retro fitted new sight bases on the 98 rifle for the new loading. I'm sure the
Turks could have done the same. Was it because the Turks had large stocks of Maxim MG-08/08/15 's ? Not sure how they function, but maybe they needed the
hotter loading? This may be an arcane question, but I really am curious. Thanks, DM
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Doc AV |
Turkish use of sS (198gn) FMJ | ||
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The Turks, during WW I, used German supplied "S" ball ( 154gn) mostly for Rifles and Maxims (Gew98, kar98a, and MG08, and M88/05), along side their
own 7,65 Mauser rifles and MGs(DWM MG'09, and some Vickers-Maxims of older date.)
AFter the war, and the Turkish revolution and Turco-Greek war, Ataturk decided that the Turkish army should fully "rebuild" itself, under the new republican principles of Self sufficiency and industrial development, to catch up with the western world. So in the 1920s, they refurbished a lot of German rifles (mostly Gew88/05s, fitting new-made Bolts by ZB, to replace those taken by the Allies (mostly British) in the "Demilitarization" frenzy of 1919. They also decided ( from battlefield comparison, ) that the 7,9 cartridge was much more efficent than the 7,65 Turkish of the original Turkish Mausers pre-WW I. Their first order of "NEW" Mauser rifles was for Gew98s on the Czech pattern (their Vz98/22) in 7,9mm, with a flat rear sight similar to the Tiurkish M1903 rear sight. ( and also marked still in Turkish (Arabic) script. At the same time, they accumulated 7,9mm ammo from "dealers" in Europe, as well as commissioning Hirtenberger in Austria to make 7,9mm ammo for them (1928). At the end of 1928, Ataturk decreed the adoption of the Western (Roman )Alphabet in Turkey, and by January 1929, the Official changeover was complete. The army started marking any rebuilt rifle form 1929 with Western numbers and letters. In mid 1929, the Turkish ordnance authority (Askeri Fabrikalar Ankara ( AS FA) started by rebarrelling M90 Turkish rifles, and by 1930, had started wholesale rebarrelling of M1903 rifles, to the "Turkish Mauser Modern Rifle," in 7,9mm, with readable (to westerners) stampings on the receiver etc. The Turkish ammo factories also had begun making 7,9 amm from about 1926 onwards, and now really made it in earnest. They initially made the 154 gr. Load, as this is what all their Gew, Kar and Gew88 rifles etc, as well as the Vz98/22 rifles were sighted for. The converted MGs were initially set for 154gn. ammo as well, but by the Mid `1930s, they started importing and then making "sS" (heavy Ball) specifically for Maxim and Vickers MGs in 7,9mm. The Long rifles and short rifles were always sighted for 154 gn. Ball. They did have removable rear sight ramps in all the Post-1930 rebuilds, and also the Kirkkale rifles of internal manufacture, but it is uncertain whether they EVER changed them out from 154 grain to 198 grain. That is not to say that soldiers in training ( Turkey had Universal 2-3 year conscription) may have occasionally used Heavy ball in their Mauser Rifles, allowing for sighting differences, but the Heavy ball was officially a MG cartridge ( as it was in most other countries which had both used contemporaneously ( such as most of Non-German Europe users of Mausers and the Chinese-- these latter still also used the M1888 cartridge, round nose as well) Turkey, of course was a Noncombattent neutral during most of WW II, and manufactured both loads of 7,9 in that period., as well as after WW II till the mid 1950s, when use of ex- W W II German ammo was prevalent ( Captured from interned troops, traded with Postwar Greece, given by the Allies as a "Cold war" inducement ( from North Afirca and Greek area capture, etc)...Most of this ex-German ammo was 198gn sS ball. I would say, the Turks believed in "if it ain't broke, don't try to Fix it!"...the 154 grain load suited their Rifle and LMG purposes well, and a small amount for the Longer range MG Heavy Ball load( water cooled) could be accomodated by their Logisitics system; the MGs could also use the Lighter ball with some sight adjustment ( and tightening of Extreme range). By the time they were adopting a general "Short" Rifle, during WW II, and After, they were soon inundated with US equipment, and a totally new cartridge, the .30. so the "Light-heavy" problem with 7,9mm simply did not eventuate...the Regulars used .30 cal, and the draftees used up old stocks of 7,9mm...and they must have held lots, because of the Volume sold in the US alone in the 1980s and 90s....(and then the ex German ammo still held in store, because it was soo good, even if 1930s made, was sold in 2002-3) So that's about it for the story of Turkish 7,9mm. regards, Doc AV AV Ballistics. Turkaholic, and Aussie. |
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m1 talker |
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Thanks, Doc! You answered some questions I was eventually going to get around to asking. I have always been a big fan of the Turk ammo and never had any of the
problems with it like some guys report, like 1947 stuff being bad and such.
Curt |
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Aubullet |
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Wow, I just love this place!
Parallax Bill's University of the Milsurp. THANKS Doc!!! |
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dutchmills |
Thanks Doc! | ||
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Did I ask the right guy or what?! Considering the huge amounts of Turk 154 grain 7.92 that was sold here in the U.S., where did all that sS heavy ball go too?
I dont remember it turning up here (but i may have missed it too) I remember the German 7.92 coming in, seems that the story was that there were 2 million
rounds in with the Turk ammo, all sold to J & G Sales. (i bought 5 "battle packs", still got 'em too) Gad! I miss the good 'ol days
allready, millions of rounds of surplus on the market....and cheap! Good thing that I bought a life time supply DM
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