Cannot resize .303 British Brass

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DoctorBill		#41	[-]
Posts: 64 (01/20/10 11:37 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Orange Cool-Aide. Very interesting...just FYI: Had you ever tried Lemon Juice ? Yes, the Citric Acid would be the cleaning agent. Citric Acid is now used in many, many home cleaning solutions sold in spray bottles. http://wiki.answers.com/Q...citric_acid_for_cleaning http://www.ehow.com/how-d...-acid-clean-pennies.html http://www.citrisurf.com/wave.htm It is an edible ('tart' or 'sour' kids candy) organic acid (biodegradable) which won't pollute the sewage water downstream. Not only is it a weak acid (won't burn you) but mainly it is a 'metal grabber' or chelator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation You can actually buy powdered Citric Acid in jars for canning fruits. It is harmless. Citric Acid is made in huge quantities industrially by growing bacterial or yeast that are genetically modified to make the molecule. It is harvested from the growth media. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid DoctorBill
akitaholic		#42	[-]
Posts: 776 (01/20/10 11:39 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	On a similar note, Coca Cola has been recommended as a loosener for nuts locked in place by rust (the poor man's Loc Tite) because of its phosphoric acid. Might do something for the inside the case grunge. Actually I can't see a problem beyond what's in the neck area, and a Nylon bristle brush in an electric drill should take care of that quickly enough. 'holic
DoctorBill		#43	[-]
Posts: 65 (01/20/10 12:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Most older cleansers contained Phosphoric Acid. Phosphoric Acid is GREAT for removing rust (Naval Jelly) and for dissolving the scale that forms from hard water (insoluble alkali earth metal silicates). However, being inorganic, it NEVER goes away and carries thru the sewage reclamation system then goes into the effluent and pollutes the rivers (algae). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid If you can find it, a dilute solution MAY clean brass (?). Yes, some sodas contain it....but the Gubment is trying to get rid of it.... DoctorBill
akitaholic		#44	[-]
Posts: 777 (01/20/10 10:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	DrBill, not sure what you mean by "never goes away". I don't think the algae eat phosphoric acid, just the phosphorus, with the hydrogen combining with something else (oxygen, to form water, most likely). When I drink Coca Cola do I excrete the phosphoric acid or do I metabolize it? Curious minds want to know.
DoctorBill		#45	[-]
Posts: 67 (01/21/10 09:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	akitaholic - Phosphorus in nature is mostly phosphates (rock & minerals). Phosphate ion is never degraded away - it is a mineral ion and stays as such forever (or in metabolic products like Nucleic Acids in DNA and RNA and ATP and phosphorylated sugars, lipids, etc.) Organic material (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, sulphated Amino Acids, etc) are all degraded to CO2, H2O and SO2 (or H2S), and as such are no longer the original molecule. Citric Acid and Vinegar (acetic acid) are completely metabolized to carbon dioxide and water - gone. Phosphate (from Phosphoric Acid) is never degraded - appears again after metabolic processes are done and gets recycled or pee'd away (excreted as phosphate). If you burn organic stuff - you get carbon dioxide and water. If you burn anything with phosphate in it, phosphate is left in the ashes - as in wood ashes. It is a mineral ion. Not volatile. Complicated, but straightforward. BTW - Phosphoric Acid is a weak acid and is in Phosphate Soda's at some Soda Shops and is in some canned soda - gives it a distinctive flavor. All living things MUST have phosphate as a food ingredient. From The New World Encyclopedia (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Human_body): "The most common chemical elements in the human body are oxygen (65 percent by mass), carbon (18 percent), hydrogen (10 percent), nitrogen (3 percent), calcium (1.5 percent), and phosphorus (1 percent) (Harper, Rodwell, and Mayes 1977). These six elements make up 99 percent of the mass of the human body. Potassium (0.35 percent), sulfur (0.25 percent), sodium (0.15 percent), and magnesium (0.05 percent) are the next four most common elements. Ten elements only combine for about 0.7 percent of the human body's mass: iron, copper, zinc, selenium, molybdenum, fluorine, chlorine, iodine, manganese, and cobalt. Trace elements that have been identified include lithium, strontium, aluminum, silicon, lead, vanadium, arsenic, and bromine." Phosphate ion (phosphorus and 4 oxygens) is in Human Ashes after cremation - in all ashes. DoctorBill Last Edited By: DoctorBill 01/21/10 09:38 PM. Edited 2 times.
trautert		#46	[-]
Posts: 5429 (01/21/10 10:54 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Doc, You just gave me a massive headache. Tom Ne Desit Virtus Rakkasans
DoctorBill		#47	[-]
Posts: 68 (01/22/10 03:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Take a "Phosphate" for it..... BTW - here is my 'setup' for reloading .303 British. 38 grains Reloader 15 / 150 grain Speer Spitzer / CCI primers. The "trickler" is a plastic "eye dropper" with Aluminum Marking Pen marks to dissipate static and inside rubbed with Dryer Sheet (used a pipe cleaner to get inside). Works fantastically well.... LEE dies, Lee "rock crusher" system. DoctorBill Proposed 28th Amendment to the United States Constitution: "Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives; and... Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ". Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/25/10 01:44 PM. Edited 2 times.
Colin		#48	[-]
Posts: 2172 (02/25/10 10:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I clean the inside of case necks with a brass brush of the appropriate pistol caliber screwed into a pistol cleaning rod. I use pistol brushes because they're short enough to go all the way inside a fairly good sized case (may not work in 7.62X39), while the rifle caliber brushes are too long. For 30 caliber cases and thereabouts, I use a 32 caliber brush. Gets the crud out.
eb in oregon		#49	[-]
Posts: 1263 (02/25/10 11:53 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ya know "Doc," many long range shooters still use just a dipper for their cartridges. A dipper can be surprisingly accurate when used correctly, i.e. consistent technique and proper "striking" of the charge. Powder measures are really not any more accurate, but they ARE more convenient. I myself don't think you will find much of a difference in your "groups" between the dipper or by scaling each and every charge. The cartridge and platform preclude the necessity of "scaling" each and every charge in my opinion, however I'm not one to tell another that what they do with their time is wasted. We each choose our own method of constructing our cartridges and using same. And as the differences in powder charge are miniscule at best, safety concerns do not really come into play. I reloaded many, many cartridges using the "old" Lee Loader before I upgraded to an RCBS powder measure, and it wasn't for accuracy or safety concerns, it was for production. I just started cranking way too many cartridges to use a dipper anymore. Colin, you know the handle of the RCBS Primer Pocket cleaner also has an 8-32 thread and holds a bore brush quite nicely. A little more convenient than using a long rod. "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
DoctorBill		#50	[-]
Posts: 95 (02/26/10 12:49 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	How's this - I've tried one of those Brass Bore Brushes in my Drill Press which is next to my LEE Rock Crusher. Really scrubs the inside neck out as it spins ! All this stuff, Brass Brushing, Castor Oil, Polishing, cleaning the DIE's, nothing has helped to resize these 303 British cases - be they F-C, R-P, or WW-Super. Many, many of them will not resize down the neck more than 1-2 mm before they are so tight in the DIE that feel I must stop and reverse them. I am supposing that my 303 Lee Enfields are expanding the necks so damned far that the DIE's just can't squeeze them back into shape w/o getting stuck. "Don't want no stinkin' stuck cases !" I refuse to spend MORE money on Collet Dies, too....I am spending money as if I had a money tree ! Or as if I were a Democrat in Congress.... I will reload them anyway since even 1 - 2 mm of resized neck should hold the bullet in place. I don't plan on treating the reloads roughly, so - they ought to fire just fine. AND - yes, eb in Oregon, I used to use just the dipper with the "LEE Loader" all by hand, one at a time, hand loader before I bought the "Rock Chucker" and several sets of DIE's, etc. But come on - my wife bought me a LEE scale and I just have to up the sophistication...after all, I am not Quigley Down Under loading stuff in the "Bush"....besides - it is peaceful and restful to sit there and act like a machine doing reloads and listening to Yanni's music and letting my mind empty out. I am becoming as a robot in Star Wars. DoctorBill I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. James Madison Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/26/10 01:01 AM. Edited 2 times.
Parashooter		#51	[-]
Posts: 1783 (02/26/10 03:25 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	It's fairly safe to assure you that the neck is not the source of significant resistance. This is because the metal in the neck and shoulder is relatively thin and easy to move. Take a look at this picture of forming 7.65x53 from .30/06 - With a little bit of castor oil and a well-polished die, this is an easy job. It's much more likely the resistance you consider excessive is either normal (solved with a stronger bench and more muscle) or the result of cases previously fired in a somewhat oversize chamber and expanded near the base where the brass is much thicker. (This is presuming you've polished the die nicely and are using good lube.) To see if this is the situation, try smoking or inking a problem case near the base to see where contact is occurring. If you're seeing contact near the base, be sure to lube the body thoroughly, use a strong bench and lean into the handle. Sizing a case with an over-expanded body can take a lot of force. You should also know that a stuck case is not a big problem with the Lee FL sizer die, as the design allows the the expander/decapper stem to serve as a driving rod after its retainer collet is loosened. See http://leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi - "You can easily remove the case yourself, loosen but do not remove the decapper clamp with a 3/4 and 1/2 wrench. Then pound on the end of the decapper rod with a 3/16 drift punch, and use a heavy hammer for best results. You can leave the die in the press for this operation." This image of sectioned cases may help you appreciate the increase in brass thickness near the solid base - (Thinned region near base of WRA, W-W, and Federal samples is the result of cumulative stretching after much reloading and not normally seen on once-fired cases like the 3 on the left.)
shotout		#52	[-]
Posts: 393 (02/26/10 06:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If you can find some one who has a 303 and would come visit you and shoot with you and could load some of those cases. Might tell something. I have 4 rifles chambered in 303, one #1,, 2 #4's and the P14. Of course the p14 has a new barrel. All mine re size with no difficulty. My Gibbs 2A1 is the culprit on the oversize chamber. 7.62x51/308. Full factory loads will swell to the limit. Haven't any NATO brass to the never exceed load for it, don't plan to.shotout
shotout		#53	[-]
Posts: 394 (02/26/10 08:10 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	DoctorBill, have you tried this? Buy some new unfired cases. Load with the starting load, either of the 4895 powders, by the manual. Bullet weight don't matter as long as it is for that load data. Make up about 5 rounds, starting load only. Now fire these and see if they will resize. Remember, I have been loading for about three years, but I learned this much. With the 2A1 and managed recoil or the starting load, the cases don't seem to swell or don't hold the expansion as much as the full load does. I get 6 to 8 loads from my 2A1 before I have to full size. It should be the same with the 303. Hope this helps and hope I didn't rattle any ones cage. That is what works for me.shotout
DoctorBill		#54	[-]
Posts: 96 (02/26/10 08:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Parashooter - we've gone thru all this before ! I ran a marking Pen down the shell from top to bottom. The Ink was removed only at the top of the neck - NO WHERE ELSE. I tried removing the depriming rod which has the inside sizing goodie and it still won't allow most of these shells to pass. Same as my previous posts at the beginning of this thread. I am using your Castor Oil ! I am using the LEE Reloader ($26 here in Spokane) as stated before. It has an 9 ½ inch lever arm. My hand is sore from pressing so hard. Here is a case I had tried to size before - sized down about 2.5 mm's. Tried sizing it again after marking it with Marking Pen Ink. Same thing - only the neck is being touched. NEW Remington Brass resized just fine. It is these used cases I got from someone. Maybe I should send two shell cases to several of you folks and YOU can see what I am dealing with. If your machine handles them easily - then, indeed, something is amiss with mine.... That will have to wait as I reloaded all of them already, partially resized neck or not. Private message me with your mailing address, and I'll send you a couple of these buggers. This LEE Machine has worked fine with 8mm Mauser and 30-30 Winchester Brass. I am not insane ! DoctorBill I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. James Madison Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/26/10 08:50 PM. Edited 4 times.
DoctorBill		#55	[-]
Posts: 97 (02/26/10 08:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	WAIT ONE ! Found something..... Looked more closely at the above shell and saw fine line on shoulder, so I re-inked the shoulder all around and tried sizing again. Now I can see that this 303 case's shoulder is not even entering the DIE because it is so wide in diameter. A 303 should mic out at 0.401 at the very top of the shoulder. Mine mic out at 0.404 ! Three of them I tested. Have these cases been blown out too far or might I have a defective DIE ? DoctorBill I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. James Madison Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/26/10 09:30 PM. Edited 2 times.
shotout		#56	[-]
Posts: 395 (02/26/10 09:01 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If I did not have a very big investment in those cases I would squeeze each one with a pair of vice grips and scrap them. I have a press just like the one you show in the pic and use the little tube of lube that came with my Lee kit. Having no trouble.shotout
DoctorBill		#57	[-]
Posts: 98 (02/26/10 09:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I removed the Depriming Rod and cleaned the DIE out - wasn't very dirty at all. Then I tried to run one of these shells up into it. Here is as far as I could get... You know how you use low melting point alloy to do a Head Space Casting on a rifle... I'd like to do that on this DIE and see what the interior looks like.... I hate to say this...but maybe Parashooter is right....maybe I should take some sandpaper to this DIE and widen the shoulder portion since the freaking Brass cases fit into my Lee Enfield quite nicely. Why fight City Hall - so my Lee Enfield has wide Hips - make the Freaking Die fit the rifle ! Edited in a tad later - The Brass seems to load just fine...notice the band where the DIE sized them. DoctorBill I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. James Madison Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/26/10 10:39 PM. Edited 4 times.
Parashooter		#58	[-]
Posts: 1784 (02/26/10 10:28 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A fired .303 should measure about .404" to .408" immediately aft of the body/shoulder junction. The chamber's shoulder is cut on a radius, so you have to be sure you're not measuring too far forward to get an accurate reading. Some wartime chambers will be a bit larger, maybe up to .420"+, but that doesn't cause problems with good tools and lube. Here are the SAAMI drawings. Remember that a fired case conforms more or less to the chamber dimensions, not the cartridge specs. (The higher the chamber pressure when fired, the more closely it conforms.) Judging from the scraping action I can see in your closeup picture of the marked and partially-sized cartridge, it looks to me like your sizer is in definite need of some more interior polishing. As another sanity check, you might disassemble, clean and lube the die and try again. If a problem case then sizes "like butter", your difficulty may be a die interior that looks smooth but is microscopically rough and is scraping the lube off the case instead of leaving a lubricant film between brass and steel. A proper polishing job will not make your die interior measurably larger but will smooth out the microscopic ridges and valleys that scrape away the lube film. One more possibility to try is annealing the necks and shoulders to "soften" the brass in that area. Google "case annealing" to find many different methods and cautions. Here's how I do it, using my fingers as a way to ensure the base doesn't get too hot - I'll PM my street address should you want to send me a few of your problem cases to examine and try with my press and dies. You already have my phone number if you want to talk about it. Not much to do around here lately but shovel slush!
DoctorBill		#59	[-]
Posts: 99 (02/26/10 10:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So what you are saying here is that just because the shell dimensions in a manual say 0.4010 in doesn't mean that I must size all my Brass to those 'ideal' dimensions.... I have been VERY reluctant to 'polish' this DIE because... 1. I do not know you from ADAM. Why should I have listened to one person who says I should 'modify' a well known and trusted LEE Factory DIE that most would trust as good ? 2. I have never done such a thing before and might screw the pooch, as it were. 3. No one else has mentioned doing such a thing to their DIE's. 4. Everyone on here is so incredibly tight about doing ANYTHING outside of the envelope. So mod'ing a reloading DIE seemed odd. But - at this point I think I have learned sufficiently about this Lee Enfield that I will get myself to a Hardware Store and polish the little bugger... In addition - maybe it wouldn't hurt to actually remove some of the DIE surface such that later reloads will have a slightly larger shoulder. Sounds like ALL L.E.'s are large in the hips....If my L.E.'s have wide chambers - so be it ! "So let it be written - so let it be done." Moses PS - if Lee Enfields have wide Chamber dimensions at the shoulder, why the Hell are the specs of the unfired shell so much smaller ? So they fit any L.E. they might be fired in ? I imagine the designers did not have Reloading Bozo's in mind when they came up with this rifle.... I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. James Madison Last Edited By: DoctorBill 02/26/10 10:59 PM. Edited 2 times.
Parashooter		#60	[-]
Posts: 1785 (02/27/10 12:06 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I appreciate your skepticism about die polishing and untrusted advice. Here's a link to a second opinion: http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm . The page also has numerous gems on various subjects and relatively little trash. This may help show you that not everybody is quite so inside-the-box as you might think from reading the average forum discussion. If you use abrasives no coarser than 600-grit and a soft backing or carrier medium like flannel, you will not damage your hardened sizer die. Try the abrasive on a smooth steel scrap or old tool to get a feeling for how it works and you'll soon understand why. It is completely normal to have several thousandths inch clearance between a new .303 case and the chamber. This allows cartridges to be inserted even if dirty, muddy, sandy, or otherwise encrudded - a useful feature in combat or hunting. As you suggest, it also ensures that the largest allowable cartridge will chamber easily in the smallest allowable chamber. Most FL sizing dies reduce the case about halfway between the specs for a new cartridge and the size of an average chamber - but you don't necessarily have to size cases to the full extent the die/shellholder will permit. Best results are often obtained by backing the die off a bit, called "partial sizing". (See http://sierrabullets.com/...me=1&issue=2#loadtip for some further explanation from a trusted source, Sierra bullets.) Last Edited By: Parashooter 02/27/10 12:16 AM. Edited 1 times.

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Cannot resize .303 British Brass