Identifying 7.7mm Arisaka TRAINING Rifles ? in The Japanese & East Asian Firearms Forum Forum

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Identifying 7.7mm Arisaka TRAINING Rifles ?

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DoctorBill	Identifying 7.7mm Arisaka TRAINING Rifles ?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 408 Mar 6 11 7:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I have a 7.7mm Arisaka just acquired at a Gun Pawn & Collector's Shop. $115 out the door. Not many folks want one of these things. It has no Chrysanthemum ! The area where the Mum is usually engraved is smooth and obviously not ground down as per usual - the radius is not disturbed. If the Chrysanthemum was ground off and someone filled the ground portion back in and refinished it - I cannot see that with a magnifying lens ! See for yourself. It has the Japanese "Type 99" below the Gas Vent Hole on the receiver. It has the following Serial Number Series Two made at the Nagoya Arsenal - last symbol is the Department of Control (Chief Inspector) of Nagoya Arsenal thanks to - 1886lebel Here is my problem. A friend insists that I should not shoot this rifle until I can PROVE that it is not a Training Rifle ! He has me worried as he said Frank de Haas said in his book "Bolt Action Rifles", that people have been killed while firing off real rounds in training rifles. It has rifling - but no Mum. It is the 'no mum' business that has me concerned - yet some say they have M 99's without mums ! Were not all of the so called Training Rifles smooth bored ? There are no strange Japanese symbols anywhere on the receiver or underneath of it. It is definitely not a "Last Ditch" rifle as it is 70,848 of 100,000 in the second series. The Japanese are extremely intelligent people and I seriously doubt that they would have "Training Rifles" sitting around with no POSITIVE identification marks - for safety's sake at least ! Can anyone tell me how to definitely identify a Training Rifle to make my friend shut up ? ...and me to quit worrying. I don't want to flinch with every shot hoping I don't get killed. DoctorBill Last Edited By: DoctorBill Mar 7 11 2:19 AM. Edited 7 times.
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hiawatha		#1	[-]
Posts: 686 Mar 6 11 10:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I don't know the significance of the absence of the mum. But if the symbol at the right end of the serial number is indeed the Chief Inspector's mark, it seems likely he passed this rifle. UNLESS, that is, the presence of the mark (which I haven't seen on the limited number of T99s I've looked at) is a rejection mark! In any case, since the T99 has rifling, you could try the remote firing method to see if the rifle is safe. You know, where you lash the rifle to a tire, tie a lanyard to the trigger shoe, retreat behind a tree or other cover, and pull the lanyard. If it blows up, you're out $115 minus what you get from the salvageable parts. If it doesn't, you got a good deal on a shooter! There may be some reason why this rifle never entered the Emperor's service. Maybe it was presented to a retiring dignitary. Maybe it was stolen by an arsenal employee. Who knows? Maybe someone here does. But I'd try the test and see what happens.
Outfielder		#2	[-]
Posts: 140 Mar 11 11 10:37 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm guessing that mark is the final acceptance mark but poorly struck. If the bolt matches the receiver and a visual inspection of the wood and receiver look ok, I would try the tire test as mentioned above. To me, the missing mum looks like it was scrubbed and a good job of finishing over it.
YAKOV VINTOVKA		#3	[-]
Posts: 56 Jul 13 11 12:07 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm not sure if my eyes are playing tricks on me but I think I can see where the mum was. It looks like it was there but was very neatly scrubbed and refinished. Maybe I'm wrong. I have a T-38 style trainer rifle without a mum and have asked alot of questions on other forums as well as reading up on them. I can tell you that training rifles were manufactured for high school youth and children in mind so very few military service rifles were converted to trainers, if converted the barrels would have been bored our smooth and all military marks removed or over stamped. Although there are some exceptions most all trainers were manufactured by private manufacturing companies and would have no arsenal or military inspection marks at all. As to mum removals I have come to the conclusion that the method of removal and how well it was done depended on who the Japanese used to do the job, ex soldiers, workers, civilian peasants? I have several type 99s and interstingly enough they all have different methods of mum removal from gentle filing, chiseling, on down to my Izawa Jyuko that someone decided to beat the mum off with what looks like a ball pean hammer. The stress of the blows cracked the stock on both sides. There is also a theory that the U.S. military got in on the act as well. I've added this link http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/FeatArts/MumMystery/MissingMum.htm which is an interesting read on how and why the Emperor's Chrysanthemum was removed. Possibly you have already come across this aricle but if not then enjoy. .45-70 The only form of big Government you really want.
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Japlmg		#4	[-]
Posts: 440 Jul 13 11 6:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I would need additional photos to be 100% certain, but it looks like you have a series 2 Nagoya T99 service rifle. Photos of the front and rear sights along with the stock would go along way to confirming that ID. Gregg
simple simon		#5	[-]
Posts: 6 Oct 11 11 10:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	For what it is worth; I have NEVER seen a service rifle, including last ditch pieces, WITHOUT a MUM. Conversely, I have never seen a training rifle WITH a MUM. I would not shoot it without having it checked out by a competent gunsmith who is familiar with Japanese Type 99 rifles. Curiously, at the end of the War the Japanese were producing last ditch specimens while brand new early production rifles sat in warehouses. Obviously, logistical inefficiency also existed in Japan. I have a "no series" type 99 that still has the factory cosmoline grease on it, as well as one of the early "Long" (31 inch barrel) Type 99's that appears to be virtually unfired, although some idiot chopped off the stock at the barrel band.
lwdavis		#6	[-]
Posts: 649 Aug 19 12 9:57 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Allot of speculation on the mum removel in that link. And Mac did humiliate the Emporer. When asked when he was going to met the Emperor, Mac answered that 'he would wait for the Emporer to come to him'! For the Emporer to have to ask for an audience with a General was humiliating! He was no god like figure to the Americans, and soon to the jap people as well. Mac did save the emporer from being tried as a war criminal, which he should have been.
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