Help Identifying my Enfield Please! in The Lee Enfield Forum Forum

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Help Identifying my Enfield Please!

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CubFanPDman	Help Identifying my Enfield Please!	Lead	[-]
Posts: 8 May 17 12 12:29 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Hello All; I just purchased a Enfield and Carcano from a friend. He did not know what they were or anything about them. He sold them to me for $250 (both). I have scoured the internet for the last two weeks and have not been able to find one that looks like it. It has a Brass (at least i believe it to be brass) butt stock, brass trigger and trigger guard, brass loops for the strap, brass rings holding the wood together, and brass sights near the muzzle. This is my first venture into an old riffle like this. The markings are: Serial Number (stamped in typical places): #HA25793A On the Bolt (when pulled out): N67 MKII One the side of the riffle (very faint and hard to read (i think it just didn't engrave clearly and pitting): N0I(?) MK4 RO (F) (?)0(?)43 Also: FTR (over) B Also: England No import marks. All things considered the riffle appears to be in good shape. I was not able to discern from the engraving what year it was made or what caliber it is (303?) The pictures are posted to my profile. Anything that you guys can help with(actual caliber, year made or ballpark, value) be much appreciated in my new Enfield adventures. Thanks for any help as I look forward to investing in my new hobby. Last Edited By: CubFanPDman May 17 12 1:17 AM. Edited 5 times.
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Bear43		#1	[-]
Posts: 982 May 17 12 10:09 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That would be a No 4 Mk 1. It has been FTR'd (Factory Thorough Repair) at some point and that usually contributes to the weak markings. They kind of scrubbed them a bit during FTR. Anyway, if that one line on the left of the receiver that you posted is correct, then more than likely it would read: No4 Mk1 ROF(F) 1943. I am not sure on serial number ranges, but the A suffix usually indicated some non-standard part of some sort. That kind of thing did happen in the early production runs. The rifle definitely has a brass butt plate, but the other bits should all be blued steel. I don't know what caused that weird discoloring but it isn't normal. The England stamp underneath the safety is a early kind of import mark. If the rifle is in original caliber, which it looks to be, then it is .303 British. A rimmed cartridge, the magazine holds 10 rounds. Overall it looks to be a rather common No 4 and you got a decent deal getting it and a Carcano for $250. Around here the No 4's sell for about $250 themselves in pretty much this condition. How is the barrel condition on this rifle?
Ed Novak		#2	[-]
Posts: 4319 May 17 12 10:40 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Welcome to this site! Overall, the rifle appears to be in good condition. Appears to me that the brass buttplate is very polished and that may be a clue to the 'discoloration' of the other metal bits - an attempt to dress the rifle up? (Reminds me of my younger brother's cadmium plating of my grandfather's/my old Stevens falling block, though Cadmium is silver colored, not brass-looking.) If that 'brass look' is not reversible, it is a $100 rifle at best, IMHO. The trigger guard is easily replaced but the fore end and front handguard metal are difficult to replace unless one has some riveting skills. ed NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member
6MD		#3	[-]
Posts: 50 May 18 12 12:21 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have seen a #4 Naval dress rifle with brass fittings. The action. bolt, magazine, trigger guard and numbered matching bayonet were chromed (ugly just didn't seem an adequete word at the time so I said nothing.......). So I wouldn't immediately discount this as not being an aberration, if he doesn't like it can't he just paint it with the good old wartime standby- black semi gloss hight temp paint?
CubFanPDman		#4	[-]
Posts: 8 May 18 12 7:02 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bear43: The barrel as some debris in it from sitting in a closet for many years. I have not had an opportunity to break it down and clean it and so I'm not for sure the exact quality, but from what I can tell so far it looks fine. Ed Novak: Glad to be part of a gun enthusiast forum, Thank You! I have been trying to figure out how the metal came to be the brass(ish) in color. The screw and small parts are all the same color. I made a very inconspicous scratch on the inside of one the suspect pieces to see if it was just a surface coloration or if the metal is all the same below the surface. The color appears the same under the surface of the metal. What color is the metal of the steal under the blued finish on a regular Enfield Riffle? The best I can tell it was not painted, polished, or washed with some type of acid. The coloring is consistent even on the tight corners of the front sight. It would have been a very difficult process to make the metal look the way it does now. Do aftermarket/replacement parts exist for this that somebody could have replaced the originals with? 6MD: I will see if I can find anything on the Naval Dress Enfield. That may have some answers. I do kind of like the brass color, its different too. I'm no expert but it appears to have a little age to it as well. Then again it may just be dirty. Thanks Any recommendations on cleaning the metal parts so as not to ruin any patina or aging? I work Third shift so I will try to take some better closeup pictures of the brass colored pieces and post them so you guys can see better the odd parts after I get some sleep. Thanks for the Help All!
Ed Novak		#5	[-]
Posts: 4319 May 18 12 3:03 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	CubFanPDman wrote: Bear43: The barrel as some debris in it from sitting in a closet for many years. I have not had an opportunity to break it down and clean it and so I'm not for sure the exact quality, but from what I can tell so far it looks fine. Ed Novak: Glad to be part of a gun enthusiast forum, Thank You! I have been trying to figure out how the metal came to be the brass(ish) in color. The screw and small parts are all the same color. I made a very inconspicous scratch on the inside of one the suspect pieces to see if it was just a surface coloration or if the metal is all the same below the surface. The color appears the same under the surface of the metal. What color is the metal of the steal under the blued finish on a regular Enfield Riffle? The best I can tell it was not painted, polished, or washed with some type of acid. The coloring is consistent even on the tight corners of the front sight. It would have been a very difficult process to make the metal look the way it does now. Do aftermarket/replacement parts exist for this that somebody could have replaced the originals with? 6MD: I will see if I can find anything on the Naval Dress Enfield. That may have some answers. I do kind of like the brass color, its different too. I'm no expert but it appears to have a little age to it as well. Then again it may just be dirty. Thanks Any recommendations on cleaning the metal parts so as not to ruin any patina or aging? I work Third shift so I will try to take some better closeup pictures of the brass colored pieces and post them so you guys can see better the odd parts after I get some sleep. Thanks for the Help All! Well, the finish is not traditional but it IS interesting. If you 'scratched through' the bluing of the usual blued parts you'd find shiny steel. I cannot imagine No.4 parts made of 'pure brass colored metal' but I can't say that it never happened except for the occasional brass bands on an SMLE/No.1 but I see that the front band on your rifle is brass-colored. I note too, that even the butt plate screws appear brightly polished, something virtually never seen on an LE. My gut-instinct is that your rifle has been 'dressed'. Does not indicate that it is not a good rifle but rather that it is in distinctly non-traditional form. NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member Last Edited By: Ed Novak May 18 12 3:15 PM. Edited 1 times.
Bear43		#6	[-]
Posts: 982 May 18 12 4:27 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I got to thinking about this and I wander if the metal was in the process of being prepped for chrome and then not completed. That would explain the polished buttplate and discoloration of the other bits. Like they went through copper dip and stopped there. It certainly does make for an interesting piece no matter how it ended up that way.
Ed Novak		#7	[-]
Posts: 4319 May 18 12 4:52 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bear: Interesting thought; does Copper more easily chrome than steel? NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member
BobM14		#8	[-]
Posts: 2549 May 18 12 6:36 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yes. Traditionally, things that are "show chromed" are triple plated. Copper/Nickel/Chrome. The copper fills imperfections and aids in adhesion.
CubFanPDman	Some more pictures	#9	[-]
Posts: 8 May 18 12 7:07 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I uploaded some more pictures. They are closeups of the odd colored parts. If any other view will help let me know. Also the markings on the side do apear to be : No4 Mk1 ROF(F) 1943 What does the "ROF(F)" stand for? Thanks
BobM14		#10	[-]
Posts: 2549 May 18 12 7:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	CubFanPDman wrote: I uploaded some more pictures. They are closeups of the odd colored parts. If any other view will help let me know. Also the markings on the side do apear to be : No4 Mk1 ROF(F) 1943 What does the "ROF(F)" stand for? Thanks Royal Ordnance Factory, Fazakerley
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CubFanPDman		#11	[-]
Posts: 8 May 19 12 6:33 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was planning on giving the riffle a good cleaning my next days off. Will any of the standard gun cleaners take the patina of the metal? Any advice in cleaning the riffle? I have never owned or cleaned a riffle this old.
Ed Novak		#12	[-]
Posts: 4319 May 19 12 1:49 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The wood: Clean it with mineral spirits on a soft rag. Do not use "harsh" chemicals; they can damage the wood fibers. Be sure to properly dispose of the mineral spirit soaked rag - spontaneous combustion thing. I throw mine into my wood-burning stove out in the garage. The metal: Kroil (a brand name) is marvelous stuff, sometimes referred to as 'the oil that creeps' - very popular and for good reason. Hoppes' #9 is pretty marvelous too, many of us love the 'Hoppes' perfume'. There are dozens of bore/metal cleaners that can work but avoid any with an ammonia base - the ammonia can damage the exterior metal finish (and the wood). Use old toothbrushes or purchase some of the 'tooth brush style' mechanic's brushes with stiff bristles (NOT metal brushes). If you must use an abrasive, 0000 grade steel wool gently applied is what I have used for decades. "Bronze wool", if you can find it in a fine grade is better/gentler than steel wool. Once the wood has been cleaned apply some BLO (boiled linseed oil) - many of us add REAL turpentine (NOT 'turpentine substitute') to dilute the BLO so that it dries faster. Apply the BLO or BLO/turpentine with a soft rag and burnish the wood with it; allow about 24 hours to dry and repeat and repeat and repeat. Someone once told me "once a day for a week and then once a week forever" but I do it whenever I am 'in the mood' these days since I don't have a SgtMajor watching me. If you find the wood too 'tacky' from too heavy applications of BLO, you can use the turpentine to buff that stickiness out. Bore cleaning: Hoppes #9 for me; apply with a bore swab/patches, let sit a few minutes and follow with a few passes of a nylon bore brush, dry patch to wipe the bore and repeat the process until your dry patches only have a light gray (clean white is nice but almost never happens) appearance is seen on the patch. ALWAYS clean from the breech; NEVER from the muzzle. NEVER! (can damage the crown of the muzzle and ruin any accuracy the rifle had.) If you are not sure about the inside of the bolt (may have cosmoline/grease in it that can make the striker (firing pin) sticky), remove the bolt head and soak the bolt and bolt head in a coffee-can with Mineral spirits, swish the parts around now and then and then drain and air-dry. Follow with just a very few drops of good gun oil on the striker, reassemble and dry-fire a few times to see how it works. Dispose of the mineral spirits wisely. I've been doing these things since I was 20 years old and my now 69 year old brain may have missed some things that I do automatically, as a routine and don't even think about so I hope that others will jump in here and give their opinions/advice. Enjoy! ed NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member
BobM14		#13	[-]
Posts: 2549 May 19 12 2:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I would only add that it is best to use a one piece cleaning rod. Preferrably a coated rod, like a Dewey rod. And after cleaning the bore with Hoppes #9, I soak a patch with CLP (Break-Free) and annoint the bore with the CLP, leaving a nice coat for storage until the next shooting session. Not to dispute your advice Ed, but I find the nylon bore brushes less than adequate for bore cleaning. A phosphor bronze bristled bore brush, like military issue, works better for me in actually getting the grooves clean. Hoppes makes bronze brushes, as does Pro-Shot and other brands. I also believe in cleaning from the breach whenever possible. But using a coated one piece rod and a muzzle protecting bore guide (bronze or polymer) will allow cleaning from the muzzle without fear of degrading the muzzle. Many semi auto rifles like M1 Garands, M14's, M1 Carbines, etc will not permit cleaning from the breach, and one must employ a system to clean from the muzzle end. Since I shoot these types of weapons as well as bolt rifles, I am comfortable with my system of Dewey rods and muzzle guides for cleaning from the muzzle. http://www.deweyrods.com/ http://www.brownells.com/...5641/Product/COATED-RODS Last Edited By: BobM14 May 19 12 4:04 PM. Edited 3 times.
Ed Novak		#14	[-]
Posts: 4319 May 19 12 6:36 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Good advice. I agree with the additional information. I do have some phosphor-bronze brushes but usually use them on new-to-me rifles for initial cleaning. Another caution I would give is to stay well away from the stainless-steel 'brushes' - they are harder than the bore's metal - "Tornado" brand brushes, I think. ed NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member
BobM14		#15	[-]
Posts: 2549 May 19 12 7:45 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You are absolutely right about the "tornado" brushes. If you notice in the plastic box (in my picture) with the blue backing, on the right side is one of these (unused) brushes. I bought one several years ago to try and help me save a friend of mines SVT40 that had been shot with corrosive ammo and not cleaned. The bore looked like a sewer pipe. Once I had examined the "tornado" brush, I decided not to try and use it. besides being stainless steel, it has no bristles. The outside edge is an endless coil with a perfectly round contour. If you used it, it would only clean the center of the grooves and not get anywhere near the squared edges of the lans. Not to mention the issue of it being stainless steet. I opted for using 8mm Mauser bronze brushes on the SVT bore. Actually. after wearing out two brushes and countless patches, the bore was pretty darned good! he got lucky.
Bear43		#16	[-]
Posts: 982 May 19 12 8:35 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I also swear by one-piece cleaning rods. They may seem spendy at first but they are well worth it. Bob and Ed put you on the path. When you go to clean the rifle just take your time and use it as a way to get to know the rifle intimately. Many of us can practically disassemble these things blindfolded, but even we started out in the same place you are now. It takes time spent with the rifle to learn all the ins and outs of them. It's fun.... and addictive
CubFanPDman		#17	[-]
Posts: 8 May 19 12 8:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was looking closely at the wood stock. It appears to be covered in some type of shellack or poly coat. Should I still use the mineral spirits on it?
Bear43		#18	[-]
Posts: 982 May 19 12 8:52 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Mineral spirits is very gentle and won't affect finishes. That's why it's so popular for cleaning wood. It get's the grease and grime off without damaging any underlying finish. Now, if that does have shellac or something along those lines on the wood then it really makes me wonder if it wasn't supposed to be a parade rifle that wasn't finished. You see, the original finish on the Enfields was just an oil finish so that finish wouldn't be "factory original". However, it is now a part of the history of the rifle and in this case I would be inclined to leave it on there.
BobM14		#19	[-]
Posts: 2549 May 20 12 12:23 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If it were mine, unless I could verify that it is in some sort of collectable configuration, which I doubt, I think I would be inclined to restore it to proper appearance. As 6MD stated, you could paint the brass bits, actually, everything but the buttplate. Strip the wood finish and reoil with BLO. It would represent itself much better that way. At least, I think so.
Bear43		#20	[-]
Posts: 982 May 20 12 9:59 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You have a great point there, Bob. Since there is no verification of what was intended or done to the rifle prior to leaving service it could very well just be the product of an individual trying to "dress up" the rifle.
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