1929 SCW? Izhevsk Dragoon in Mosin Nagant Forum Forum

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1929 SCW? Izhevsk Dragoon

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Pahtu	1929 SCW? Izhevsk Dragoon	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2744 Jul 6 12 12:56 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I bought this interesting rifle last November at a Spokane Gunshow. I can't tell you how many times I went to that neat show to find nothing.....Pretty sure it gets picked over by a couple advanced collectors who set up there... Well, this time the show produced a 1929 Izhevsk Dragoon. The piece is mismatched, the bore is poor, the handguard was cracked.....I can see why the rifle was not snatched up immediately. I have been hitting the local gunshows fairly heavily these past 11 years or so and have found/noticed three Dragoons.....just this past year. Two at a show, one at a shop. Dragoons usually have a Finnish provenance, the other likely place they came from is Spain. Spain had a civil war and firearms from that period are usually abbreviated SCW by collectors. This piece cannot be diffinitively be identified as a SCW piece, but it for sure is not Finned. Either way it is unique & I am happy to have found it. The background of the pics is a little bit away from my favorite stomping grounds - It is an example of another old corral where cattle were once rounded up and loaded into trucks via the loading chute. There were once dozens of cattle ranchers in the area, but they are a vanishing breed.....The corral in the pics is what is left of a ranch where the owner has long passed.....call me weird.....but I felt as if I was not alone when I was taking pics.....I kept feeling like someone was there.....but of course I was alone for miles and miles.... Enjoy the pics! Pahtu. Solid Dragoon front and rear handguard bands.... Bobbed barrel.... Tula hammer receiver....Izhevsk barrel....HUH? Simply someone somewhere felt the need to replace the receiver with a functional receiver and a good barrel. Possible Spanish Civil War stamp - Ithilsdorf(sp) needs to see this one...? Bottom view of solid Dragoon bands Brass endcaps Cut back barrel, yet old crown...? Oddly enough a matching yet not Izhevsk Buttplate...? Cracked and runny super glue repaired/stabilized handguard. Note the color of the wood near the handguard on the below couple pics- It is dark as if that area experienced severe heat....like prolonged firing..... Beveled portion near barrel shank....common on alot of refurb ex Dragoons....here is such a thing on a real Dragoon! Bottom of Tang pic - Shows a 1920 receiver - Experts have opined this series of late teens early 20's receivers were rumored to be of low sub standard quality, thus one finds many a replaced receiver on the before mentioned years barrels.... I am a bit chicken to fire the piece as it needs to be hot cleaned and the receiver is dated 1920..... Last Edited By: Pahtu Jul 6 12 1:05 AM. Edited 1 time.
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NotPC		#1	[-]
Posts: 5932 Jul 6 12 9:22 AM Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A very nifty rifle indeed! Congrats! I must have missed that show, but I'm really happy for you that you found that rifle. (I often go to shows even when I have no money to spend.) Non-refurbed Dragoons are hard to find these days.
Pahtu		#2	[-]
Posts: 2744 Jul 7 12 10:02 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I hear ya NotPC, I took a few rifles to sell at that show, only to find no one was interested in them.....Not one question about my fine MN's at all! - There were several hundred people at that show.... Then I found this one.....could not leave this bad boy behind.....it had to come home with me..... On my return trip home, I called mom around Ritsville to see if she wanted to eat dinner with me at the local casino - I stopped by the casino....I checked my Keno numbers only to find I hit seven out of seven....Woo Hoo, I kept my MN's.... Double Jackpot in Keno that month... Pahtu.
ptf18		#3	[-]
Posts: 15 Aug 13 12 9:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Pahtu: Just came across your post about your '29 ex-Dragoon. Ive got one also. Its a Izhevsk that was "modernized" with the m91/30 mods. its got the m91/30 front and rear sights. Your rifles stock finish is indeed interesting. Yours doesnt seem to have the typical "red" lacquer finish smeared all over it. Mine came with a post war referb stock. I purchased a correct late '20s stock for it but it too had the "red" lacquer finish on it. I used oooo steel wool and alchohol to remove the lacquer and found that the wood (like yours) was "stained" dark. MY opinion of this was that the RUSKYS up until WWll used pine tar as the FInns did, to "seal" the wooden stocks, thus this dark color. Again IMHO during the War. they stopped using pine tar and sealed the wooden stocks with fast drying lacquer. After the War, during post War referbs, they continued to use "red" lacquer to seal the stocks... as we are seeing on the millions of m91 coming into the USA. Thoughts?
NotPC		#4	[-]
Posts: 5932 Aug 13 12 10:42 PM Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"Pahtu: Just came across your post about your '29 ex-Dragoon. Ive got one also. Its a Izhevsk that was "modernized" with the m91/30 mods. its got the m91/30 front and rear sights. Your rifles stock finish is indeed interesting. Yours doesnt seem to have the typical "red" lacquer finish smeared all over it. Mine came with a post war referb stock. I purchased a correct late '20s stock for it but it too had the "red" lacquer finish on it. I used oooo steel wool and alchohol to remove the lacquer and found that the wood (like yours) was "stained" dark. MY opinion of this was that the RUSKYS up until WWll used pine tar as the FInns did, to "seal" the wooden stocks, thus this dark color. Again IMHO during the War. they stopped using pine tar and sealed the wooden stocks with fast drying lacquer. After the War, during post War referbs, they continued to use "red" lacquer to seal the stocks... as we are seeing on the millions of m91 coming into the USA. Thoughts?" ptf18: Russian and Soviet sotcks are primarily made out of Birch. It is a white wood and was stained to a darker color. No evidence has surfaced so far that they used "pine tar" as the Finns did. They have always covered the stained wood with shellac - not lacquer. Post WW II refurbs have an amber-colored shellac on them and your "late 20's" stock was likely re-finished and probably came from a post-WW II refurb. I have several non-refurbished Mosins and the finish on those do not resemble the refurbs from the 1970's and later. They look more like Pahtu's rifle (except for the American Mosins with black Walnut stocks).
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Pahtu		#5	[-]
Posts: 2744 Aug 14 12 3:12 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	ptf18, I agree with NotPC - I have a few original finished Soviet guns & numerous Finn rifles & I am convinced that the Soviets did not use Pine Tar on their stocks - I am not 100% convinced that the Finns did either - If the Finns did use pine tar it was most likely used/mixed with other ingredients/substances. I have dabbled with restoring some bubba'd Finn stocks and have tried different types of Pine Tar and have not been satisfied one bit with the outcome as the color is nowhere near my original finished Finn rifles. Pahtu.
NotPC		#6	[-]
Posts: 5932 Aug 14 12 12:09 PM Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Going by the "campfire" aroma of some Finnish stocks (noticed primarily when I remove a buttplate - the open end grain retains the aroma), I do believe the Finns used Pine Tar for something at some point. Years ago many natural-based products were used. Glue made from animal hooves is still holding furniture together after 300 years. Paste was made from flour. Stains were from natural sources. Shellac comes from worms, IIRC. I have a container of Pine Tar from Norway that is used for waxing wooden skis. It has that same "campfire" scent. Pine tar used for baseball bats is not the same mixture. There is no historical verification of what is now called the "Finnish one thirds mixture" either, but it will not hurt a stock. Just know if you use it it is not verifiable as "original". Purists like to use something "original" or nothing at all.
Pahtu		#7	[-]
Posts: 2744 Aug 15 12 6:58 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	NotPC wrote: Going by the "campfire" aroma of some Finnish stocks (noticed primarily when I remove a buttplate - the open end grain retains the aroma), I do believe the Finns used Pine Tar for something at some point. Years ago many natural-based products were used. Glue made from animal hooves is still holding furniture together after 300 years. Paste was made from flour. Stains were from natural sources. Shellac comes from worms, IIRC. I have a container of Pine Tar from Norway that is used for waxing wooden skis. It has that same "campfire" scent. Pine tar used for baseball bats is not the same mixture. There is no historical verification of what is now called the "Finnish one thirds mixture" either, but it will not hurt a stock. Just know if you use it it is not verifiable as "original". Purists like to use something "original" or nothing at all. Yes, the aroma when I open my safe is that as you describe above - I know CH has found a substance that was used on stocks that really does resemble the post war finnish(not the Pomo laquer used on 28-30s) - I sure wish some documentation would surface as to what the Finns had used through the years, as it varied - Proof in the different finished Finn rifles I have from the older to the newer models. Pahtu.
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