Question about twist rate in Black Powder Muzzle Loaders Forum

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Question about twist rate

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Bear43	Question about twist rate	Lead	[-]
Posts: 983 Nov 5 12 9:57 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I was at a gun show this past weekend and got quite a deal on a CVA Mountain Stalker in .54. It's practically a twin to my .54 CVA Bobcat, with one difference. The twist rate is quite different. The other muzzle loaders I have are all 1:48" twist, this new-to-me rifle has a 1:38". Now, from what I have read over the years that would be too fast a twist rate for round ball, 1:48" being about as fast as you want to go. So, what do you guys thing I should try in this rifle for a projectile?
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A square 10		#1	[-]
Posts: 1921 Nov 5 12 3:28 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	mini ball ? .....im not quallified to answer that really , but seems i was just reading something on this that sugested that to be your answer In these times 'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my gun and my money. Anyone that supports this insanity can keep "THE CHANGE".
TP		#2	[-]
Posts: 1114 Nov 6 12 9:48 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The usual twist rate for a true Minié ball is slow. The standard US Rifle Musket in both .58 and .69 was one turn in 72 inches. The one in 38 twist might work well for a Lee REAL bullet or something similar. It should also work fine with a roundball as long as the charge is kept relatively light and the patch/ball combination tight.
nothernug		#3	[-]
Posts: 13334 Nov 6 12 11:46 AM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No, definitly not the Minie' ball. What about something like TC's "Maxi-ball"? Also, a lot of these new fangled ML rifles are using saboted bulets. I have no idea what twist they work with but you might look into it. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams Last Edited By: nothernug Nov 6 12 12:13 PM. Edited 1 times.
Bear43		#4	[-]
Posts: 983 Nov 6 12 11:01 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for the ideas guys. I think I will try a couple different bullets and see how they perform. Oh, and as for the sabots.... I tried that crap once and will never do so again. What a pain in the hind end those things are. They loaded so tight I was actually afraid to fire the rifle. I actually did the string firing method and promptly threw those stupid things out.
Ian.britishmilitari...		#5	[-]
Posts: 23 Nov 8 12 1:11 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have a double rifle that has a 1/38 twist deep rifling and shoots round ball beautifully with tight patched balls and 75gr 2fg took a big moose a few yrs ago with it 100 paces. don't rule out the round ball till youv'e given it a chance. cheers Ian. It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
Bear43		#6	[-]
Posts: 983 Nov 8 12 2:30 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks Ian! I will try that first then. I have plenty of round ball.
nothernug		#7	[-]
Posts: 13334 Nov 10 12 9:08 PM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for mentioning your experience with the sabot bullets. It just seems to me that modern bullets would not perform nearly well enough and bP velocity levels. Never had any particular interest in them myself. The only bp weapons I had besides military muskets was a Pennsylvania rifle and a TC "New Englander" roughly in plains rifle style though not a true copy of any such rifle. Using a round barrel I felt it balanced better than the rifles with heavier octagon barrels. I no longer have either of those rifles. I also had a Ruger "Old Army." It was a fun pistol but, I no longer have it or any other bp pistol. The upshot is that I have little experience with projos other than Minie' balls. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams
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Bear43		#8	[-]
Posts: 983 Nov 12 12 1:33 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	One day I am going to own something that shoots a Minie' ball well. All in good time I guess. I am really finding myself more and more drawn to the bp firearms again. It seems like the older I get the more simplistic I want to keep things
Ian.britishmilitari...		#9	[-]
Posts: 23 Dec 1 12 1:24 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Start looking for an English Parker Hale P53 or P58 the British long range shooters do amazing things with them in Mini ball competition. I have an early PH. P58 that shoots both modified Minies and round balls very well however we cant use the mini in competition here so it has shot many hundreds of RB's with it's 1 in 48 twist and have been in the winners circle a few times with it . about the simplistic bit I have in over 30 yrs never found anything simplistic about black powder except that it's simple to get adicted cheers Ian. It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
nothernug		#10	[-]
Posts: 13334 Dec 3 12 10:28 AM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Ian. Can you explain by what logic (if there's actually any) you all are banned from shooting Minie' balls? I can see it being argued they have greater range than RBs but, what matter if shooting on a dedicated range with proper backstops? I too have a 1st generation P/H P1853. (see below) But, here at least, those are prohibitively expensive these days and the P1858 even more so. Also, concerning the P/H P1858, there has been discussion about limited barrel life, something like 5,000 rounds IIRC. Has there been any final determination about that, that you know of? Though still not cheap, any of the better European import "Enfields" (and "Springfields too) should shoot the Minie's well. Now, the old "Zouave" rifles will scatter traditional Minie's all over the landscape as I found back in the 70s when one became the first gun I ever bought for myself. I wound up having a discussion with a fellow at Lyman and he recommended a bullet mold they had that was delivering good results with those rifles. I have no idea what the mold numbers were or if it is even still made. But the details were that it had a blunter more rounded nose giving it a longer body ogive for more stabilizing contact with the bore. I want to say it was about 510gr weight at .575 dia. That bullet shot very well in the Zouave and likely would in any of the other round ball twist rifles, at least so it seems to me. And what I shoot from it though I confess to not having done recently. L- US style bullet nose forward. It should be about 2". I don't know why mine come out so long. I only use 65 grains powder which is about original loading (60-70gr depending on manual consulted). R- Confederate style cartridge with bullet nose inward. The difference is that the English Cartridges (3") and CSA cartridges (2") bullets were smaller and the paper over the bullet base was lubed and the bullet loaded as paper patched. My bullets are .575 so they are pulled from the paper entirely US style. Some one day I will find some "Pritchett" bullets and try loading them original style. By all reports the rifle produced very good accuracy so loaded. Note; Reason for edit- I just realized I had many typos so corrected them (I hope!) If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams Last Edited By: nothernug 05/19/13 01:36 AM. Edited 2 times.
Ian.britishmilitari...		#11	[-]
Posts: 23 Dec 11 12 5:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I can shoot minies from the P58 and bullets from my P/H Whitworth anywhere I wish also I can hunt with them however the BP competition rules forbid it as the vast majority of shooters here are living in the fur trade era which is a great part of Western Canada's history . we are heavy into smoothe bore's and competition is not more than 200M. If one wishes there is BPCR silouette matches out to 500M where you would be allowed to use a muzzle loader with minies or bullets if you could fit into the time alloted. We have no ranges that I know longer than 500M so the long range shooting like Bisley can't be accomodated anyway. Just the way we have developed I guess. cheers Ian. It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
nothernug		#12	[-]
Posts: 13334 Dec 12 12 10:51 AM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I gotcha. Range & competition ruling. Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams
AZshooter		#13	[-]
Posts: 701 05/18/13 12:16 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Back in the mid 70's I got a Lee .54 Minie Ball mold & began casting for my Gallagher. Accuracy was marginal & casting roundballs consumed less lead & accuracy was much better. Fast forward to a few months ago & I got a Lyman Deerstalker that needed some work before & would take it to the range. 1:48" barrel with 80 Gr. Pyrodex RS & .535 PRB gave me better-than-expected precision, with the group all touching at 75 yards. Same 80 Gr. load with the 410 Gr. Lee Minie opened up some, but still a respectable group. The Minie load kicked like a mule & next time, I'll try dropping it to around 50 Gr. to see if it's better & more comfy to fire. The Minie mould is bought & paid for, but if I had a do-over, I'd pass & stick to RB's. Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.
nothernug		#14	[-]
Posts: 13334 05/19/13 01:29 AM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	One big advantage of round balls, economically speaking, over Minie' types is you can cast them out of any old lead you can lay hands on including wheel weights since you're using a patch to hold the rifling. To work right a Minie has to be pure lead. Of course, pure lead is still best for accuracy since inconsistencies in your lead mix can cause imbalance in your balls making irregular trajectories. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams
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Question about twist rate

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